Pop Culture Happy Hour : NPR

[THEME MUSIC]

AISHA HARRIS: Now, in the event you’re something like me, you have in all probability nonetheless received Sabrina Carpenter’s breakout album Short n’ Sweet in regular rotation. Just over a yr later, she’s already again with a brand new assortment of cheeky earworms known as Man’s Best Friend.

STEPHEN THOMPSON: Carpenter explores lots of the identical lyrical themes as she has previously, winking innuendo and wry commentary on being a girl within the courting scene, however she kicks it up a number of notches whereas taking part in round with extra retro heavy sounds. I’m Stephen Thompson.

HARRIS: And I’m Aisha Harris. And as we speak we’re speaking about Sabrina Carpenter’s newest album, Man’s Best Friend, on Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR.

HARRIS: Joining us as we speak is NPR music critic and correspondent Ann Powers. Hey, Ann.

ANN POWERS: Hey, buddy. It’s so enjoyable to be with you to speak in regards to the dirtiest gal in present enterprise.

HARRIS: [LAUGHS] Yes, it is going to be very, very enjoyable to speak about this album with you each. So Sabrina Carpenter’s been very busy since 2024. Her world Short n’ Sweet tour remains to be going sturdy. It’s scheduled to conclude later this fall. She put out a vacation particular, picked up a few Grammys, and launched a duet of “Please, Please, Please” with Dolly Parton. And one way or the other, throughout all of that, she discovered time to document her new album, Man’s Best Friend. The lead single, “Manchild,” peaked at primary on the Billboard charts in June.

SABRINA CARPENTER: (SINGING) Why so horny in that case dumb And how survive the Earth so lengthy? If I’m not there, it will not get performed I select accountable your mother

HARRIS: This is her seventh studio album, and she or he’s reteamed together with her frequent collaborators, Amy Allen and Jack Antonoff. Stephen, I’m going to begin with you. How a lot did this album make you blush?

[LAUGHTER]

THOMPSON: A bit of bit. You know, the second single from the album known as “Tears.” And the vibe that I scribbled down in my notes was attractive Dua Lipa. It is a really type of retro, type of disco-based, very, very attractive track.

HARRIS: Yes.

THOMPSON: And hilariously, like, wanting type of on Spotify, there are three songs from this album that do not need express tags. “Tears” is one in every of them, and it’s the track that by far made me blush essentially the most.

POWERS: It ought to make you blush as a result of, , this track is constructed round a metaphor that goes all the way in which to the start of twentieth century standard music. It jogs my memory of Bessie Smith, however Sabrina has a distinct approach of claiming it. Maybe we should always hear it.

CARPENTER: (SINGING) I get moist on the considered you, uh-huh Being a accountable man Treating me such as you’re purported to do, uh-huh Tears run down my thighs, shikitah

POWERS: You blushed. I cringed slightly bit, I’ve to say. I’m an enormous Sabrina supporter, and I truly love songs about ladies’s sexuality. But that line? Uh, I do not know.

THOMPSON: But on steadiness, I believe this document feels very very like a continuation of Short n’ Sweet. I used to be an especially sturdy proponent of the track “Manchild,” which, for me, actually livened up the type of track of the summer season dialog. Even the excerpt that we performed type of on the high of this phase, there have been, like, 5 jokes in 10 or 15 seconds, proper?

POWERS: Yeah.

THOMPSON: And I respect the truth that she continues to make songs that aren’t solely extraordinarily hooky and intensely catchy, , type of vibrant and shimmery and playful, however they’re additionally humorous. And I believe, , her background as a comic book actor actually has translated nicely to her as a significant pop star. And one factor that I do respect type of thematically about this document, in comparison with Short n’ Sweet, one of many large hits from Short n’ Sweet was known as “Taste.” And it was actually directing vitriol on the lady who was courting her ex. And there was, I believe, with this document, an enormous pivot off of that approach of approaching dangerous love, proper? Like, these songs are all directed at males. You can type of make a taxonomy of Sabrina Carpenter, Man’s Best Friend songs of, like, males:dumb, males:sizzling, males:see ya, males:intercourse, please.

POWERS: Yes.

THOMPSON: In that approach, it type of features virtually as an idea album. And it is directing the vitriol precisely the place the vitriol belongs, generally inward, however largely at dudes.

HARRIS: Yes, yeah.

POWERS: I’m glad you used the phrase “concept album,” Stephen, as a result of I positively suppose this can be a idea album. And perhaps this provides us an opportunity to briefly discuss in regards to the cowl controversy. So–

HARRIS: Yes.

POWERS: –long earlier than this document got here out, Sabrina Carpenter was teasing it with a number of completely different variations of her cowl. The first album cowl that got here out is the one which I see on my streaming service proper now. She is on all fours on the ground in slightly black costume, and a person whose face you possibly can’t see is holding her hair. Now, some people–

HARRIS: Maybe a person. We do not know. Apparently, there are some rumors that it could possibly be additionally Sabrina Carpenter, however like, that is taking place the deep nicely of fandom.

POWERS: Here’s why I’m virtually positive it is a man. Because simply to complete the story, for individuals who do not know, she subsequently launched a number of different covers as a result of this cowl did trigger an argument as a result of she was in a subservient, quote unquote, “position.” But for me, that picture is a lot like a Robert Palmer–

HARRIS: Yes.

POWERS: –cover album from the ’70s. I’m speaking in regards to the man who did “Addicted to Love” with the all-model band within the background. It’s this louche ’70s, , horny however in a degraded approach reference level that she’s getting at. She’s being historic right here. And similar to the sound of this document is reaching again into the previous, in a way, the imagery round it’s also– to me, it is very ’70s.

HARRIS: Yeah.

POWERS: People evaluate Sabrina Carpenter to Dolly Parton. I believe she’s like Erica Jong, the creator of Fear of Flying. That’s who I believe she’s essentially the most like. This album to me is a lot like type of horny feminism of the early ’70s.

HARRIS: Yeah. I like that you simply introduced that up as a result of that entire controversy– and who is aware of? For all we all know, the way in which artists roll out now, they all the time have, like, 18 completely different covers–

POWERS: Yes.

HARRIS: –already on lock. It’s like, yeah, we have now to promote extra copies. So who is aware of if that wasn’t, like, an intentional pivot, or she was already planning to have these album covers out? But it appeared so apparent to me that she is being cheeky and making some extent about it. Even the title of this album is Man’s Best Friend.

POWERS: Right, precisely.

HARRIS: And but, as Stephen has famous, this whole album is, like, principally all of the methods males disappoint us and sometimes make us sizzling, but in addition disappoint us.

[LAUGHTER]

THOMPSON: Sometimes concurrently.

POWERS: I believe concurrently is the purpose, truthfully.

HARRIS: Yeah. That entire controversy felt simply probably not vital, but in addition proved some extent in a approach that we nonetheless do not actually know find out how to cope with, , ladies, and particularly youthful ladies who’re asserting their sexuality in a sure approach and doing so in a political approach, very blatantly political approach. I discovered this album to be very fascinating as a result of I’ve listened to it now– so we’re recording this Friday afternoon. We’ve had a number of hours to take a seat with it. I received to hearken to it a number of occasions. And it did not fairly hook me as shortly as Short n’ Sweet did. All of these songs on Short n’ Sweet felt like instantly, oh, I’m excited for this. And this one, [SIGHS] it took me till, like, the third spherical the place I used to be like, OK, I’m feeling this. I do must type of throw this concept out here– and I do know, Ann, that is one thing you needed to speak about– which is this concept of her actually leaning into, like, the comedic aspect of her. There had been a number of songs right here that I saved pondering, this looks like an SNL digital quick. This feels very Lonely Island. Like, it went from Short n’ Sweet feeling, as if, oh, yeah, she’s being cheeky, however like, I believe a part of it’s the songs, although a few of them did really feel like throwbacks of a sure period, they nonetheless felt trendy and up to date, whereas right here, we’re getting slightly bit extra retro. “Tears,” you have already performed. That type of appears like a ’70s disco sound preset, like–

POWERS: Yes.

HARRIS: –you know, on a keyboard. It’s not prefer it’s doing something notably fancy with the music. Like, it is very primary disco. And this additionally out of her being such a visible storyteller. She’s telling tales. And these are sometimes tales that really feel as if if this was 2005, 2006, Maya Rudolph, Kristen Wiig can be performing these songs. And particularly, this got here up for me with “When Did You Get Hot?”, which is a good idea.

POWERS: Yes.

HARRIS: But I need to play slightly little bit of this and inform me you can’t see some SNL individuals performing this and doing this whole bit.

CARPENTER: (SINGING) Now I’m on the prospect conference My mates stroll in your mates’ course Said, Sabrina, do not Devin? And I used to be like, huh When did you get sizzling impulsively? I can look you up and down all day, hey

HARRIS: Like, I do not know. I can see Sabrina being the visitor host. And then, like, you have received Andy Samberg playing–

[LAUGHTER]

HARRIS: –Devin.

POWERS: You know what? It’s like Sabrina Carpenter can be the feminine of the Lonely Island. That is known as a excellent position for her. I completely agree. I imply, as you had been saying, Stephen– and I believe our colleague, Hazel Cills, additionally wrote about this– she is actually a comic book artist at this level. I imply, perhaps it is too early to speak about this, however does the comedian position, like, restrict her? Do you are feeling like that is, like, getting slightly slender with this document?

THOMPSON: I do not suppose so. And one factor that I used to be reminded of a number of occasions listening to this document was type of basic nation music, , type of track lyrics which can be doing large phrase play. Like, Ann, you and I’ve listened to a number of, , classic nation music over time. You dwell in Nashville. I used to be reminded of a number of basic nation songs the place, like, ladies would sing these takedowns of males that had been so catchy and so quotable.

POWERS: Stephen, I believe you are completely proper that she connects with basic nation music– Loretta Lynn, , songs like “You Ain’t Woman Enough to Take My Man.” Sabrina is commonly in comparison with Dolly Parton, and I positively hear that. But I believe it is actually about her connection to up to date nation music.

THOMPSON: Interesting.

POWERS: And y’all, this is the reason I used to be so blissful you requested me to be on this episode as a result of I get to check out my new principle, my new ruling principle of what is occurring in pop music. Are you prepared for it?

HARRIS: Yes.

POWERS: It’s known as critique from inside.

HARRIS: Ah, sure.

POWERS: And it is actually occurring in nation music proper now. There is an entire class of younger ladies artists in nation music– Megan Moroney, Ella Langley, Priscilla Block, Jessie Murph– who writes songs which can be a lot just like the songs on this document. You hear these sorts of themes which can be on this document. Like, my man is so obsessive about self-improvement, he is ignoring me. Or, , my man turns me on by doing the chores or no matter. Like, these themes are positively in there, nevertheless it’s all about we’re not attempting to have a feminist revolution. We’re not attempting to create, , a queer utopia like final yr’s pop girly Chappell Roan was.

HARRIS: Yeah.

POWERS: We are ladies embracing conventional femininity and heterosexuality, however provided that we’re additionally allowed to critique it whereas we do it.

HARRIS: Yeah. I like that you simply introduced that up as a result of that got here to thoughts after I additionally watched the video for “Tears,” which dropped on the identical time the album dropped. And that video is taking part in with some of the iconic, , dualities of heteronormativity and, , queerness and the opposite, and particularly, Rocky Horror Picture Show. She is the damsel who lands outdoors the home, the mansion, after which good piece of casting here–

THOMPSON: Yes.

HARRIS: –Colman Domingo principally type of taking part in the Frank-N-Furter character. And he is nice, fabulous to look at. But as I used to be watching it, I used to be like, , that is additionally simply variety of– it is each bold, however not like a Chappell Roan, she nonetheless appears to be like very conventionally heterosexually sizzling, proper? Like, she is, , in lingerie. She’s received her large blonde hair, wig– I do not know– no matter it’s. And like, everybody else round her, they’re the queer ones. They are the bizarre ones. They are the outside-the-box ones. And she’s sizzling, however she nonetheless appears to be like, , very, quote unquote, “normal.”

POWERS: And not solely appears to be like it, but in addition she– within the track, she performs that position.

HARRIS: Exactly.

POWERS: Like, she’s not going to be working off together with her greatest buddy or no matter who’s–

HARRIS: Right.

POWERS: Like, she’s very pushed towards males. [LAUGHS]

HARRIS: Yeah.

POWERS: Listen, I simply need to say, I’m not speaking smack about that. Like, it is cool.

HARRIS: Yes.

POWERS: As a cishet particular person myself, , we’d like these sorts of figures to poke enjoyable at heterosexuality, to embody our beliefs whereas taking them down a notch, which is what I type of suppose she’s doing.

HARRIS: Yeah, I utterly agree. Stephen.

THOMPSON: Well, and appropriately with that, I believe a number of the musical signposts here– , we have acknowledged Dua Lipa, we have acknowledged type of ’70s country– the assorted eras being thrown again to on this album, the one which I do not know if it is going to get mentioned sufficient when individuals speak about it’s a sure vein of ’80s pop and R&B that has, like, a tinny high quality to it and isn’t essentially what is taken into account the basic songs of that period. Names that got here up, there is a observe on this album known as “House Tour.”

HARRIS: Yes.

THOMPSON: Let’s hear slightly little bit of that.

CARPENTER: (SINGING) Do you desire a home tour? I may take you to the primary, second, third ground And I promise none of this can be a metaphor I simply need you to come back inside But by no means enter by way of the again door

POWERS: (SINGING) Because opposites entice

THOMPSON: I imply, you talked about Paula Abdul. Three names that I wrote down– and Aisha, you won’t even bear in mind these– Samantha Fox–

HARRIS: Yes, I do know her.

THOMPSON: Stacey Q–

HARRIS: Stacey Q.

POWERS: Oh, yeah.

THOMPSON: –and Lisa Lisa & Cult Jam.

HARRIS: Of course. Yeah.

THOMPSON: Now, these will not be essentially artists who get performed. You hear a few of their songs on retro radio generally, however they are not essentially synonymous with what individuals speak about once they speak about ’80s music.

HARRIS: Yeah.

THOMPSON: And to me, this track simply faucets proper into that particular type of fizzy, bubblegum, R&B inflected pop of, like, 1986.

HARRIS: Yeah.

POWERS: Definitely. I imply, Dan Charnas truly wrote an amazing piece about this for Slate about “Espresso.” But it is precisely what you are speaking about, Stephen. It’s like early mid-’80s hip-hop affiliated, however not precisely hip-hop, however positively city feeling, but in addition very female ingénue–

THOMPSON: Right.

POWERS: –feeling.

HARRIS: Yeah.

POWERS: But I need to say, I really feel just like the sonic palette of this document is not utterly confined to that. Let’s hear only a tiny little bit of the start of “Never Getting Laid.”

[SABRINA CARPENTER, “NEVER GETTING LAID”]

POWERS: See, like, to me, that is actually like a discofied ballad type of ’70s sound.

HARRIS: I used to be getting slightly yacht rock. Like, I used to be listening to, like– (SINGING) I maintain forgettin’

[VOCALIZES]

POWERS: You know what it’s? It’s yacht rock and A Quiet Storm.

HARRIS: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

POWERS: And the track adjustments. But that starting took me proper again to the ’70s.

HARRIS: Yeah. I imply, that is type of what was fascinating to me. And once more, this type of goes again to the place I’m slightly bit blended on this album, which is that I do not need to ding her for, , persevering with to type of not drill it into the bottom, however , like, she is taking part in this half. And once more, on the finish of her video for “Tears,” she has an entire bit the place Joe Apollonio, the actor, exhibits up, and she or he’s like, you are purported to be useless. And like, sorry, everybody in my movies dies. And she’s like, we have now to present the individuals what they need. And that appears to be type of the thesis assertion for this album is, y’all, like Short n’ Sweet? I’m going to present you shorter and sweeter. I do not know if it is truly shorter, however like–

POWERS: Longer and brighter, shorter and sweeter.

HARRIS: Yeah. Not even sweeter, however simply, like, saucier, I assume.

POWERS: Saucy is the phrase.

HARRIS: It’s diverse sufficient the place not each track sounds prefer it could possibly be a Lonely Island track, however then a few of them do. Like, actually, there’s moments the place I used to be type of shocked that we do not simply get yacht rock, we do not simply get nation, we do not simply get, like, new jack swing mild, however we additionally get, like, banjos and type of a jig sooner or later.

POWERS: I believe Sabrina Carpenter may play the banjo. I believe she truly may be a banjoist.

HARRIS: Yeah, you may be proper. Whatever we’re getting, we’re getting plenty of various things. And I each respect how sonically this feels completely different from Short n’ Sweet, however then generally that type of retro wanting again on this pastiche of issues, it is arduous for me to take it as critically generally. It simply looks as if they’re type of butting up towards one another, and I fear she could possibly be teetering on shtick versus, like, truly deconstructing all of those concepts. And I believe it really works extra efficiently on sure songs than others. And I believe that is the place I type of am scuffling with this album. But I nonetheless actually loved it on the identical time.

POWERS: I imply, that is all the time a problem whenever you’re approaching the topic of intercourse in a comic book approach, ?

HARRIS: Yeah.

POWERS: Because frankly, I’m simply going to say, Americans mostly– perhaps it isn’t simply Americans, however , we’re by no means actually snug speaking about intercourse. If we make a joke out of it, it is simpler. And it is simpler particularly for a lady to be express if she’s comical.

HARRIS: Yeah.

POWERS: And this goes all the way in which again to, like, basic Hollywood, somebody like Jean Harlow, ? Or within the ’70s, I believe my buddy Carl Wilson, in his Slate assessment of this document, talked about Loni Anderson from WKRP in Cincinnati, ? And I believe that is a really “down the middle way” to strategy the topic. And I do respect the songs on this document which can be slightly extra open to different feelings, like “We Almost Broke Up Again Last Night.”

CARPENTER: (SINGING) All the “I love you’s” and “I’m sorrys” had been mentioned We had our intercourse after which we made amends, that is proper Called it a false alarm to all of our mates Then we virtually broke up once more final night time

POWERS: There’s a tenderness to that track. There is slightly bit of– I do not know– like, she’s not placing on the armor of laughter as a lot on that track.

HARRIS: It’s susceptible. It’s extra susceptible.

POWERS: Exactly.

HARRIS: At least on the floor, yeah.

POWERS: Exactly.

THOMPSON: I do suppose there is a component with this document of, simply it within the trajectory of her profession, as type of putting whereas the iron’s sizzling, whereas on the identical time reducing the stakes slightly bit. You know, I really feel like with a number of pop star trajectories, there’s this sense that, like, you must high what you probably did earlier than. There’s virtually a certain quantity of sequel bloat, , that comes up. You actually see it with individuals like Taylor Swift, the place it is like, oh, and this album is 2 hours lengthy, , as a result of it has to type of construct on one thing and be even greater than the factor earlier than. And for me, like, there’s an unlimited quantity of labor that goes into this music, not solely this album and all of the sonic touches that we have talked about, however how arduous she leans into making actually glorious movies, and movies which can be actually superior to most movies being made.

HARRIS: Yes.

THOMPSON: But on the identical time, the album is, , 12 songs and 38 minutes. And it is slightly greater than a yr after the final one. This is her seventh album. She type of offers in quantity. So in a way, there’s slightly little bit of, like, a reducing of the temperature occurring the place she would not essentially really feel the necessity to high what she did a yr ago–

HARRIS: Yeah.

THOMPSON: –so a lot as discover new methods of it.

POWERS: I believe it is all the time vital to speak about, quote unquote, “pop girlies,” a time period I’ve some points with, however to consider pop girlies as musicians and as truly caring in regards to the music they make. And Sabrina Carpenter is a consummate craftswoman.

HARRIS: Yeah.

POWERS: I believe she’s the right foil for Jack Antonoff. You know, like Jack Antonoff, she is fascinated with interval items, she’s fascinated with pastiche. She enjoys taking part in a task. You know, we take into consideration Jack Antonoff along with his Bleachers initiatives, proper? He’s received this fictional state of affairs through which that band exists. And I believe him as a producer, somebody who’s so expert at evoking the intervals you talked about, Stephen, the early ’80s and in addition again into the ’70s, matching with him, she will be able to actually totally flesh out this position. And not like Taylor, who some may say is Jack Antonoff’s excellent foil, she’s not additionally being like, I’ve to make an enormous assertion about my coronary heart, my soul, and the way it pertains to the entire billions of girls on this planet or no matter, ? She’s–

HARRIS: Yeah.

POWERS: She’s simply having enjoyable within the studio. I think about a number of laughter occurring in the course of the recording of this document. So that is the a part of it I like. I truly virtually prefer it if I tune out the upper ideas slightly bit, or the decrease ideas, if you wish to name them that, and simply benefit from the move.

HARRIS: Yeah. We additionally, like, cannot neglect that Amy Allen is a large a part of this, too. And I believe having–

POWERS: Yeah, the songwriter, Amy Allen.

HARRIS: Yeah. Having two ladies in that room, or nevertheless many ladies within the room– I do not know– however like, having these two particularly, it offers it slightly bit extra of a tone, particularly contemplating the idea of this album, which is, , males, disappointing.

[LAUGHTER]

THOMPSON: Men:sheesh.

POWERS: Well, Aisha, I believe we’re in a really attention-grabbing second for ladies in pop proper now, ladies artists proper now working within the mainstream, as a result of it is slightly unclear the place the tradition’s going. Are we swinging extra conservative? I’m attempting to get my head round if we’re in, like, a post-liberation second, however there’s additionally all this type of resurgence of conventional values, proper?

HARRIS: Yeah.

POWERS: This is one thing that pop artists are having to cope with, ? And I believe Sabrina Carpenter is consummately outfitted to cope with that, ? It’s as we have been speaking about. It’s the comedian aspect of what she does. It’s the keenness about males. It’s not simply males:sheesh. It’s additionally males:whew.

[LAUGHTER]

POWERS: You know?

HARRIS: Yeah. This is true. Again, Devin, you are sizzling now.

[LAUGHTER]

POWERS: Exactly. She’s not main us to some type of new horizon of gender roles or intimate relationships. But I believe for lots of people, she’s offering type of classes on find out how to cope. And if not cope together with your accomplice, who’s, like, not doing what you need, not delivering what you need, at the least to, , have slightly chuckle about it.

HARRIS: Yeah, roll your eyes when you settle for lower than you deserve.

POWERS: Exactly. Roll your eyes above your completely rouged apple cheeks.

HARRIS: [LAUGHS] Well, we need to know what you concentrate on Sabrina Carpenter’s Man’s Best Friend. Find us at fb.com/pchh. That brings us to the top of our present. Ann Powers, Stephen Thompson, this was a beautiful dialog. Thank you a lot.

POWERS: Thank you a lot.

THOMPSON: Thank you.

HARRIS: I need to take a second to thank our Pop Culture Happy Hour Plus subscribers. We respect you a lot for displaying your help of NPR. And if you have not signed up but, you need to present your help and hearken to the present with none sponsor breaks as a result of who would not, sure, head over to plus.npr.org/happyhour, or go to the hyperlink in our present notes. This episode was produced by Carly Rubin, Janae Morris, and Mike Katzif, edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. And Hello Come In supplies our theme music. Thanks a lot for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I’m Aisha Harris. We’ll see you all subsequent time.

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