The drawback with profession planning in science

Julie Gould 00:10

Hello and welcome to Working Scientist, a Nature Careers podcast. I’m Julie Gould.

This is the sixth and closing episode of the profession planning collection, supported by the International Science Council.

In June 2025, Dame Professor Ottoline Leyser stepped down because the CEO of URKI, or UK Research and Innovation, the non-departmental public physique of the federal government that handles science and analysis funding within the UK.

She’s been on this place since 2020, and through her time there, she helped reshape the UK Research and Innovation panorama by streamlining funding processes and fostering a extra joined up collaborative ecosystem.

She has additionally superior initiatives just like the Future Leaders Fellowships, place-based affect schemes and narrative CVs.

I spoke with Ottoline in December 2024 as she was beginning to consider her step down and transition again into an instructional function on the University of Cambridge.

We had a beautiful dialog about careers and profession paths and the work that she has been doing, not simply as a part of her function on the UKRI, but additionally all through her profession, specializing in bringing variety to analysis profession paths by bringing consideration to the truth that profession paths in analysis don’t must be the prescribed ones that you simply typically hear about in academia, however that there are numerous, some ways to be a analysis scientist.

As with the opposite episodes on this collection, this one concludes with a sponsored slot from the International Science Council, with the help of the China Association for Science and Technology.

The ISC is exploring how early and mid-career researchers can navigate their careers in a constantly-evolving scientific panorama by conversations with rising and established scientists.

Julie Gould 01:59

Professor Dame Ottoline Leyser had what you may name a standard tutorial profession: PhD, postdoc, postdoc after which lecturer, and in 2011 she grew to become closely concerned within the formation of the independently-funded Sainsbury Laboratory on the University of Cambridge.

During this time she developed an curiosity in coverage work, which is why the place of CEO on the UKRI was an excellent alternative for her to focus her efforts on this a part of the scientific setting.

Here’s the factor, although, Ottoline by no means deliberate on being the CEO of UKRI.

It was deliberate happenstance in motion, however she has spent a number of time contemplating what’s necessary to her so as to have the ability to thrive within the roles that she is in.

This is the place our dialog begins, speaking about profession planning and what it actually means to her.

And I discovered it actually fascinating how she explains that in the end, there are not any guidelines on the way you do your profession.

If you need to be an instructional, you don’t must comply with the prescribed route that you simply’re instructed about. There are many different methods

Ottoline Leyser 02:55

I on the entire discover the notion of profession planning, and the best way most individuals interpret that, as truly unhelpful to what I’d contemplate to be actually good profession planning.

So for me, you’ve acquired to start out with who you might be and your values.

You’ve acquired to start out with what actually issues to you, what you need to get out of life, what you care about, what you don’t care about, the sort of setting you need to be in, the sort of particular person you need to be.

I don’t just like the work-life steadiness idea, as a result of that means there’s your work over right here, and your life over right here, and also you’re in some way….

You’re one particular person. I’m one particular person. I’ve one life. It contains some work. It contains another stuff.

So to me, it’s about sort of coherence about who I’m and what I do.

And the entire decisions I’ve made have been based mostly on on that. Does this, does this match who I’m not, you understand, I need to do that, after which I need to do this.

But the difficulty with profession planning is it tends to lock individuals down into the idea that they wish to be an X in nonetheless a few years time.

And you’re not your job. You are who you might be. And you may construct a extremely fulfilling profession by following who you might be, and holding your eyes on the complete vary of alternatives out there to you to be who you might be. And it’s not going to be one factor.

Lots of the challenges, I believe, in analysis careers, are individuals get locked into this concept that there’s actually just one pathway, and that’s the one approach you can also make use of your analysis abilities and your analysis pursuits. And it’s so unfaithful.

There are so many alternatives for individuals with a, with a sort of analysis state of mind.

And it’s a tragedy, actually, that individuals are not inspired to have a look at that full vary of issues and construct for themselves the sort of profession that meets their wants, their priorities, matches their values.

Julie Gould 05:08

Okay, so that is speaking slightly bit about profession path variety, which is one thing I do know you’re very, very enthusiastic about. So inform me slightly bit extra about that and why that’s so necessary to you.

Ottoline Leyser 05:18

One of the extraordinary issues a couple of analysis state of mind or analysis mind-set is the extraordinary vary of alternatives which can be out there to you.

And but we, all of us, take into consideration a analysis profession as you go to school and by no means depart.

And you’ve acquired to get by, you understand, you’ve acquired your PhD and your postdoc and one other postdoc. And it’s very precarious, and then you definately’ve acquired that in and that.

All my profession individuals have instructed me that there are guidelines, you understand, you’ve acquired to do that and also you’ve acquired to do this, or it can or gained’t work.

And I’ve, you understand, It’s patently not true.

Almost all the principles individuals let you know about find out how to succeed, you could find individuals having fantastic careers, even in of the sort of prescribed kind that you concentrate on, the place they’ve damaged all of these guidelines. You know, when to have your youngsters, all of that sort of stuff. There simply aren’t any guidelines.

So that’s, that’s the very first thing, I believe.

The second factor is, I believe analysis profession, I imply, analysis environments vastly profit from variety, from completely different individuals with completely different concepts and alternative ways of occupied with issues. You’ve had completely different experiences and convey various things in.

And I’m involved that that commonplace tutorial profession path has turn out to be so constrained that we’ve got truly crushed variety out of it.

And that, I believe, is a big problem for the standard of analysis that’s occurring in universities all over the world.

One of the obvious issues I see, for instance, is if you happen to’re occupied with variety by way of legally-protected traits.

People have a look at the professoriate and say, “You know, it’s terrible. There aren’t enough women or there aren’t enough Black people.”

We want to know why that’s and do one thing about it. What they then do is observe again down the easy, linear tutorial profession path and ask, “Where are people with those characteristics lost? At what point do they disappear, and therefore are not represented at the more senior levels.”

It’s extraordinary. They don’t disappear. They’re nonetheless completely fantastic people who find themselves on the earth doing completely fantastic jobs.

And if you wish to diversify the professoriate, you should appoint individuals to it who haven’t been on precisely the identical profession path as everyone else.

And that’s starting to occur now, which could be very thrilling with an rising variety of so-called professors of follow within the UK context,

I don’t know why you need to name them professors of follow. Why aren’t they simply professors?

And bringing individuals in who’ve had actually thrilling analysis experiences, in business, within the public sector, in coverage, no matter it’s. Those experiences deeply enrich a analysis tradition setting, for instance, and we in academia for instance.

And we’d like these individuals. And in order that the unusual notion of an extremely constrained profession path the place you need to squeeze your self by some sort of slender gateway each stage, it’s very unhelpful.

It’s not useful for researchers early of their careers, pondering, “How am I going to manage this terrifying thing?”

And it’s not useful for the standard of the analysis environments that we’re constructing.

Julie Gould 08:43

So how can we assist these youthful profession researchers see that, you understand, you don’t must undergo, such as you mentioned, all these little gates, to climb up that prescribed profession ladder, however that you may veer off and there are methods again in, do you have to need to, for instance, go away and do a while in business and are available again and are available again into academia?

How can we assist them see that that may be a risk?

Ottoline Leyser 09:08

So it is a actually necessary query, as a result of it’s inherently the case that many individuals at an early stage of their profession in academia are being suggested and mentored by people who find themselves in academia, and most people who find themselves in academia haven’t labored anyplace else, and so they love their jobs.

So the recommendation that a number of these junior individuals are getting is is kind of slender and constrained recommendation.

And I believe that’s a problem, and I believe so I do know a number of universities, for instance, have profession companies which can be open to the undergraduates and typically PhD college students too, however I believe they want additionally to be open to postdoctoral researchers, and there are a number of sources on the market to help individuals. I’m additionally an enormous believer in internship alternatives, and so forth and so forth.

But deeply and essentially, it’s about it’s a cultural factor. It’s that lots of people in academia early of their profession are getting the message that really, that linear, boring tutorial profession path is the one success, that’s the one, that’s the best way, the reality and the sunshine.

And if you happen to do the rest, you’ve disappeared, you’ve misplaced, you’ve gone. And that’s acquired to vary. And that’s one thing that I hope as we take into consideration issues just like the evaluation standards that we use for the entire aggressive actions that there are within the analysis system.

And it can at all times be aggressive, as a result of there’s by no means sufficient cash to do the entire cool issues there are the principles for profitable these competitions.

They’ve acquired to shift. They’ve acquired to be a lot broader and extra various, in order that we correctly seize the complete vary of of every part that we’d like within the system.

And in order that’s the opposite factor that we will all do is, is reject the notion that success equals Nature publications. Sorry….

Julie Gould 11:02

I don’t take that personally in any respect. Don’t be offended by this query, however you’re a massive advocate for various profession paths, however you your self have taken a really conventional tutorial profession path, like, how do you mirror by yourself profession because of being closely concerned on this?

Ottoline Leyser 11:20

So as I mentioned earlier than, one of many wonderful issues about an instructional profession is it’s truly a really versatile and various profession.

So I’ve had the chance to do a rare vary of issues over my profession while carrying that one hat.

So you understand, I’ve labored with the Nuffield Council on Bioethics. I’ve labored numerous worldwide organizations. I’ve achieved a number of work with the federal government, even earlier than I got here into this job, instructing and occupied with, you understand, pedagogy and, and the entire work on analysis tradition I began way back.

So it’s been a job that you may reinvent a number of instances alongside the best way. And I’ve loved it, all of it.

And, you understand, coming into this job, massive step, fairly completely different set of issues, additionally in some way, sort of a part of the journey. I’ve by no means felt that it was the one possibility. It’s not like I by no means thought of different issues or shifting.

I had numerous alternatives to maneuver in numerous locations. And as I mentioned in the beginning, what it comes again right down to is, how can I proceed to work in a approach that aligns with who I’m and what I need to obtain?

And I’ve been very lucky to have these alternatives the entire time and to have the ability to make the selections I’ve made.

And yeah, after all, stuff occurs, and your priorities change and your constraints change.

I’ve two youngsters. They’re very fantastic. I, you understand, hung out in a different way within the days once they have been younger.

My, having mentioned that, my husband labored from dwelling, and so he was the primary supplier. So it was very simple for me.

Probably the toughest time, from that standpoint, was he sadly died practically 10 years in the past now, with most cancers.

And the yr he was in poor health with most cancers was, I used to be that was actually robust in every kind of how.

And so, yeah, I imply, stuff occurs, life occurs, and the selections you make are, as I say, have gotten to be about you, and what issues to you.

Going after some sort of slender set of achievements that you simply’ve set your self, to me, shouldn’t be, it’s not fulfilling. It’s not what it’s about. It’s about the way you’ve lived your life, I suppose.

Julie Gould 14:16

Okay. Well, wanting ahead then to how you’re going to be residing your life.

In June 2025 you’ll be ending your secondment right here at UKRI because the CEO. Do you could have any plans instead of what you’re going to do subsequent?

Are you going again to Cambridge University? Are you doing one thing new? Are you taking a break, a properly earned relaxation? What’s on the playing cards?

Ottoline Leyser 14:38

I’m going again to Cambridge. Well, I believe I’ll take the summer time off. I believe that’s okay, however I’m going again to Cambridge. I, you understand, I miss the issues I used to be doing, you understand, I miss analysis, I miss instructing, get again to these in some sense.

My group has wound down fully. So how I. I what I do from a analysis standpoint, continues to be unclear to me. I nearly definitely will probably be working way more in collaboration than beginning a bunch from scratch.

And then the factor I’m actually eager to proceed to do, I believe underpinning a number of this stuff that we’ve talked about truly, are the truth that, for quite a lot of causes, the best way we take into consideration science, broadly outlined, within the West within the twenty first century, has shifted away from what science actually is to the purpose that science is a factor achieved by intelligent individuals in Chinese laboratories.

And that, I believe, that underpins a number of the cultural challenges we’ve talked about. It’s achieved by, you understand, Einstein figures in white coats, rattling check tubes. And if you happen to’re, if you happen to if you happen to don’t need to be a kind of, why would you choose a profession in science?

If you could have picked a profession in science, you’re inevitably going to be completely, you understand, residing with imposter syndrome, as a result of clearly no person is a kind of.

So I believe that that notion of what science is is basically on the core of a number of these challenges with analysis tradition and the pressures that we’ve talked about.

And on the identical time, I believe it’s very disempowering for individuals who don’t consider themselves as scientists. So this notion that intelligent scientists over there’ll repair it for you is definitely extremely undermining to type of company in society.

And so I believe we’d like, we have to sort of re-engineer the place science sits in our pondering to be way more about what it’s.

It’s a really primary human factor about how we perceive the world round us, how we, how we’re, yeah, empowered to make issues higher. It’s a sort of wonderful set of problem-solving instruments.

It’s not about eliminating uncertainty. It’s about navigating it actually successfully. And if we will societally, sort of recapture that as a core sort of public good set of instruments out there to everyone, then I believe every kind of issues would really feel higher.

We’re in a really tough time, I believe, from a sort of geopolitical standpoint, the place polarization is the norm.

And that sense, as a substitute of coming collectively to unravel a few of these challenges, as a result of we’ve got the instruments to do it, that’s one of the crucial highly effective methods, I believe, out of the nation that, you understand, it’s all very dangerous and it’s their fault, which is, is, is underpinning a number of the narrative there may be globally.

So, you understand, altering the notion of science is one thing I’m actually excited to attempt to get some extra levers on.

There’s good work in a number of locations, on, on, on that matter. Just, even simply bringing it collectively and amplifying the quantity could be a beautiful factor to do.

Julie Gould 18:06

Ottoline, thanks a lot for taking the time to talk to me. It’s been actually, actually fascinating. Thank you.

Ottoline Leyser: 18:08

Thank you.

Julie Gould 18:11

Thank you. That was an excellent dialog that I had with Dame professor, Ottoline Leyser, who accomplished her time on the UKRI in the summertime of 2025.

I actually liked her reflection on her personal profession path in direction of the tip of our dialog, and that for her, what was at all times necessary was discovering methods to work that aligned along with her values and beliefs, no matter what life threw at her.

So that’s it for this collection on profession planning from Working Scientist. I hope you loved it and that you may take some sensible ideas away from it.

But earlier than you go, right here’s our sponsored slot from the International Science Council on profession improvement for early and mid profession researchers in an ever evolving scientific panorama.

Thanks for listening. I’m Julie Gould.

Izzie Clarke: 19:00

Hello and welcome to this closing podcast, offered in partnership with the International Science Council, with the help of the China Association for Science and Technology. I’m science journalist Izzie Clarke.

Across this collection, we’ve explored how younger scientists can navigate profession improvement in an ever-changing scientific ecosystem. And, on this closing episode, we’ll focus on the way forward for scientific collaboration.

Joining me are Professor Yongguan Zhu from the Chinese Academy of Sciences.

He’s the Director General for the Research Center for Eco-Environmental Sciences, and in addition the Vice-President for Membership of the International Science Council.

Yongguan Zhu: 19:49

Hi. Hello.

Izzie Clarke: 19:50

And Dr Charah Watson, Executive Director on the Scientific Research Council in Kingston, Jamaica.

Charah Watson: 19:52

Hi, how are you?

Izzie Clarke: 19:53

Very properly, thanks.

Science at present is extra world and interconnected than ever. So, whenever you hear the phrase ‘science across boundaries’, what does that imply to every of you and why does that matter?

Charah, would you want to start out on that one?

Charah Watson: 20:12

Sure. So, science with out boundary means science with out limitations or restrictions of geographic location, of tradition — of something. Because science is about info. Science is about discovering the info of all of it and presenting it in order that it may be utilized to advance no matter it’s we’re attempting to advance.

It turns into extraordinarily necessary that the scientific ideas and scientific strategies are upheld in order that no matter we current might be trusted. And with out obstacles, it helps to enhance the belief issue of the science that we’re placing out.

Izzie Clarke: 20:51

Absolutely. And Yongguan, what does ‘science across boundaries’ imply to you?

Yongguan Zhu: 20:55

I believe on this globalized world, science is the widespread language. Probably it’s the one widespread language that may unite the individuals throughout borders, languages and in addition cultural obstacles. So, actually one thing that we share collectively and to advance the human prosperity collectively on this world village.

Izzie Clarke: 21:20

And how would you say scientific analysis has developed past tutorial labs and establishments and the rest much like that extra not too long ago, Yongguan?

Yongguan Zhu: 21:33

I believe that society truly wants extra transformative science that may assist the transition in direction of a extra inexperienced and a wholesome future. So, science isn’t just keep throughout the group of scientists. But we must always translate our discoveries into options for real-world issues, and in addition to teach to most people to enhance the society as an entire, notably within the space of sustainability science, which actually includes each member of the society, no matter your location, your wealth and well being, and many others.

Izzie Clarke: 22:15

Yes, we had an earlier episode the place considered one of our visitors talked about this one world, we’ve got one dwelling. Charah, what do you concentrate on that?

Charah Watson: 22:23

What we’ve got seen is with this thrust of entrepreneurship, it’s being inspired, it’s proper all through society, what it means is that discovery and improvement of applied sciences, options, most of which is able to make use of scientific ideas that aren’t occurring inside laboratories, that aren’t occurring inside tutorial establishment. And that’s as a result of we’re all experiencing the world collectively, we’re all experiencing the challenges, so due to this fact a few of us will begin occupied with options. And when you begin pondering that approach, probably you will see that science occurring inside group.

And right here in Jamaica, specifically, we’ve got what we name a National Innovation Awards. And many of the functions for these awards are from individuals who are usually not linked with any sort of establishment, which is demonstrating to us that individuals are using primary scientific ideas to seek out solutions to points which can be being confronted.

Izzie Clarke: 23:24

And I suppose on the theme of that, what function do you assume citizen science has to play in the way forward for science, as properly?

Charah Watson: 23:34

A elementary one. The common residents can’t be excluded as a result of one of many first foundation for us is at all times reviewing what is going on on the bottom, getting your observations. And the place you’re going to get most of these from? The residents. And I’m glad to see that whenever you’re speaking about conventional societies, folklore practices and developments constructed from people who we’re seeing, it’s essential now to make sure that you embrace Indigenous information holders, in order that they can’t be excluded in any respect.

Izzie Clarke: 24:01

Yongguan?

Yongguan Zhu: 24:02

I believe by participating the residents will assist disseminate the science. That’s the primary significance. The second is, truly, by participating the residents additionally, we encourage the younger individuals to turn out to be excited about science so we will forge our future generations of scientists. We want a steady provide of abilities. So, I believe the citizen science may play a job in that regard.

Izzie Clarke: 24:35

Yeah, completely.

And Charah, are there any misconceptions or challenges about cross-sector or worldwide analysis that you simply’d truly prefer to problem?

Charah Watson: 24:47

Well, most analysis science, any sort of exploration, would require cross-sectional method. There’s nothing that’s occurring in isolation. And one of many misconceptions is that it’s tough or nearly not possible to do, which it’s not. And I’ll dare to say that it’s what we’ve got at all times been doing. But now being extra intentional and extra strategic, and connecting the dots from very early as a substitute of figuring it out down the highway, you’re taking a look at all of the cross connectivity.

Communication is at all times a problem, particularly science communication is one thing that you simply follow and also you get higher at. Because even once I attend scientific conferences, a number of it goes over my head as a result of we communicate in sure jargons and we’re lacking that chance to speak with the entire. We want a collaborative method in addressing the problems or challenges and see the alignment with the varied sectors that is perhaps concerned.

Izzie Clarke: 25:52

Yeah, and I believe it takes braveness, doesn’t it, to say, truly, are you able to clarify that? But I believe whenever you’re collaborating with those who communication is so necessary.

And Yongguan, what are among the alternatives and potential challenges, as properly, that early- and mid-career researchers needs to be conscious of on the subject of working throughout academia, business, public sectors or with different communities?

Yongguan Zhu: 26:19

I believe for early-career scientists, they need to be ready to come across difficulties. There is at all times difficulties however we shouldn’t be afraid of problem as a result of something we need to obtain is at all times attempt to overcome obstacles. So, don’t be afraid of difficulties, be persistent.

And one other level is we needs to be at all times conscious about alternatives. Even serendipities in my very own profession, many serendipities truly result in profitable collaboration. So, we simply must be searching for alternatives and seize alternatives to make networks. This is essential.

Izzie Clarke: 27:07

Yeah, that’s nice recommendation.

So, Charah, from your individual experiences, what was a standout initiative that you simply have been a part of that crossed boundaries — whether or not that’s throughout sectors, disciplines or completely different international locations? And what would you say have been a few of your greatest learnings from that have?

Charah Watson: 27:24

So, on the Scientific Research Council, a number of our work is geared to our supporting Jamaica’s agricultural business. We must interface with completely different authorities businesses, worldwide companions, different worldwide analysis establishments, as a result of what you discover in smaller international locations like Jamaica, whereas we’ve got a number of analysis prospects, we don’t have the wherewithal to execute the entire completely different actions inside our analysis initiatives.

It comes again once more to making sure that you’ve got a really clear technique in place in find out how to deal with communication and interplay. And I imagine we’re at some extent now the place we will clearly point out and talk with our companions. We have entry to worldwide funding. And you discover that a number of international locations which can be creating has that concern. While there is perhaps entry to funding, there’s a misalignment of agenda. And that comes so much by miscommunication, not being assured sufficient to specific what your wants are and the way you may slot in, as a substitute of simply taking over and say sure.

Izzie Clarke: 28:38

Is there something that you simply discovered, specifically, that helps you navigate these types of conditions?

Charah Watson: 28:45

Yes. It involves constructing relationships. You’re understanding the place every particular person, every nation’s coming from in order that what you’re creating collectively, what you’re designing collectively, it’s extra aligned and the outcomes are extra consistent with our general goals.

Izzie Clarke: 29:04

And Yongguan, for researchers which can be simply beginning out, how can they start to seek out or create these new type of collaborative alternatives?

Yongguan Zhu: 29:15

My recommendation could be don’t be shy, be open-minded. And, additionally, we frequently say that alternatives are for ready minds, however that’s not sufficient. Actually, we needs to be extra outgoing to create alternatives in your profession improvement. Look for alternatives and create alternatives for collaboration.

Charah Watson: 29:40

I completely agree with Yongguan. Opportunity favours the ready thoughts and creating your individual alternatives, creating your individual doorways, and even opening it your self and exhibiting others that you may stroll by — and stroll by with me — is necessary.

For me, I benefitted so much from nice mentors. And they selected me. And there should have been one thing about me being open, demonstrating that I don’t know most issues and I need to be taught extra issues. And the precise mentors, the precise people that may help you, will come on board.

Izzie Clarke: 30:18

And I suppose that goes again to nearly what Yongguan was saying earlier, as properly — simply look out for these alternatives and seize them once they make themselves identified.

So, trying to the long run, what excites you most about the place science and scientific careers are heading?

Charah Watson: 30:35

So, what excites me goes again to your very first query, which is science between disciplines, sectors and science with out gender. Now, you might be having extra participation from all of the genders and that’s wonderful, particularly being a girl and understanding that science is extra measured on its weight than on who’s doing it and the place it’s being achieved.

Izzie Clarke: 31:03

And if you happen to might give one piece of recommendation to early- and mid-career researchers hoping to form the way forward for science, what would it not be? Charah?

Charah Watson: 31:13

Build relationships earlier than you want them. Those are probably the most real and probably the most long-lasting. You want a group. So, it’s essential that you’re conscious of who you might be, it’s important. Then exit and construct these relationships with none expectations in return, and that can help you in any profession, whether or not it’s science, enterprise, no matter you’re doing. Know who you might be, know your why and construct relationships earlier than you want them.

Izzie Clarke: 31:42

And Yongguan?

Yongguan Zhu: 32:43

Yeah. My recommendation could be attempt to transcend the standard boundaries of science disciplines these days, as a result of we have gotten more and more extra interdisciplinary and we must always broaden our imaginative and prescient as a lot as doable. It’s a bit like climbing the mountain — the upper you get, the extra complete image you will note. By seeing the massive image, you will see that the extra alternatives, extra issues that you may deal with in your future works. That’s a small recommendation I’d give. Thank you.

Izzie Clarke: 32:21

No, thanks. And thanks each for becoming a member of me at present.

If you’re an early- or mid-career researcher and also you need to construct skilled relationships throughout boundaries, then be a part of the International Science Council discussion board for rising scientists.

Visit the web site council.science/discussion board to be taught extra. I’m Izzie Clarke, thanks for listening.