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We don't assume any duty or legal responsibility for the use or interpretation of this content material. Leveling Up: The Wild Mission of Christian Gaming Guests: Jonathan Ober and Frank KulgowskiFrom the collection: The Mission of Christian Gaming (Day 1 of two)Air date: June 1, 2026 Jonathan (00:04):Are there issues that you'd do in these VR areas or in these gaming areas that you wouldn't do in entrance of mother and pa or grandma and grandpa? No. Okay, good. Let’s hold that. And so simply being a light-weight there and sharing Jesus in no matter they do.Ann (00:27):Welcome to FamilyLife Today, the place we need to enable you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Ann Wilson.Dave (00:33):And I’m Dave Wilson, and you'll find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.Honey, we’re speaking about your favourite matter at this time.Ann (00:49):Yes, we're.Dave (00:50):What is it?Ann (00:50):Gaming.Dave (00:51):I don’t know if it’s gaming or the—is it referred to as the Meta Universe? We’ve received Jonathan Ober who goes by Ober.Jonathan:Yes.Dave:Yeah. And I’ve received to ask you about Jonathan. And I received to do that, Frank Kulgowski.Frank (01:05):That was excellent; received it.Dave (01:06):Was it excellent?Frank (01:06):You received it.Dave:I need to see if Ann can say it.Ann (01:08):That’s Kulgowski.Dave (01:09):Oh, you’re so—Frank (01:10):Great. Yep. That’s it.Dave (01:11):You’ve received the—what do you name that factor over there?Frank (01:13):This is a digital actuality, VR, headset.Dave (01:17):What on the planet are you guys doing on this universe and the way are you aware one another?Ann (01:21):In this universe.Jonathan (01:22):We’re going into completely different worlds the place we’re assembly different individuals. And once I say worlds, it may very well be one thing like an web cafe, may very well be a Japanese Shinto temple sort place.Dave (01:32):You’re really on-line in that house?Jonathan (01:34):Yes. We are visiting a digital world that somebody has created. Maybe it seems like an actual place. Maybe it seems like one thing fantastical that they’ve made up. There may very well be a large whale swimming within the sky and exquisite ocean water simply form of lapping up in opposition to a shore. So any form of factor you may consider, there may be a world on the market the place you may go and go to.Dave (01:58):Can you simply knock on the door and stroll in? How do you get in?Jonathan (02:01):There’s these items referred to as portals, and you'll throw a portal out and produce a good friend with you and also you simply stroll by way of and consider it as similar to a large oval that has an image of that world and also you’re there in a matter of seconds.Ann (02:13):People are pondering proper now.Jonathan (02:15):Magically, zip, you’re in a special place.Ann (02:16):Are we listening to FamilyLife Today? Yes, you're. And it is a place the place plenty of our children, our younger adults, us, plenty of us are going to those locations.Jonathan (02:26):Yeah.Dave (02:27):What occurs if you get there? What do you do?Jonathan (02:29):So plenty of what we’re attempting to do is meet individuals the place they're. And so we method them and typically we simply say, hello, how are you doing at this time? And that might flip right into a dialog the place they’re—Dave (02:38):Not loads completely different than in case you walked right into a park.Jonathan (02:40):No, not loads completely different.Dave (02:42):And they’re sitting there and also you simply had been a pleasant man, and also you mentioned, “Hey, how are you doing?”Jonathan:Yep, for positive.Dave:And see in the event that they need to speak. Is there a …Jonathan (02:48):Yeah.Ann (02:48):Wait, is that this completely different from taking part in video video games on-line, which all people’s doing?Jonathan (02:53):Yes.Ann (02:53):Is this completely different?Jonathan (02:53):We use VRChat after we’re going into the—Ann (02:56):And what's VRChat?—for the those who aren’t the players.Jonathan (02:59):It is an software usually on a digital actuality headset, although you possibly can go in your cellphone. It does have a component of a cellphone app and a pc PC app, however you’re happening there and basically to satisfy different individuals or possibly simply hand around in a digital house. And we are saying, “How are you doing today?” And typically that may be retorted, like someone may curse at you, sadly. But plenty of what we’re discovering is that there are individuals which might be simply misplaced in their very own world and possibly the one place that they discover freedom, or they discover connection is within the digital house. And so after we say, “How are you doing?” Sometimes that individual responds with, “I’m doing all right.” I personally wish to say, “What do you mean by all right? What’s going on that you’re only all right?”(03:43):Because in case you’re not good otherwise you’re not nice, one thing’s happening. And in order that then can steamroll right into a dialog of possibly their life with their household is just not nice they usually’re in or in a relationship that’s damaged, a girlfriend or boyfriend. I recall an expertise the place I met an individual, they go by the title of Huska, and I went as much as them and I simply mentioned, “How are you doing?” And he was like, “I’m doing okay.” And I mentioned, “Okay, well, tell me a little bit about that. ” And he was sharing slightly bit. And in that dialog, he requested me what was I doing in VRChat? I mentioned, “Well, I come in here with a group of friends over my lunch break.” And he was like, “Well, how do you get enough time for your lunch break?” And I used to be like, “Well, I work for this organization called FamilyLife. And a part of that, we have this group that go into VRChat to share the gospel and meet people where they’re at and just point them to Jesus.”(04:34):He mentioned, “I am a new Christian.” And he mentioned, “I’ve been struggling to find a church,”—and this individual is from Australia. So once more, VRChat, you’re assembly individuals from everywhere in the world. And so he begins sharing slightly bit then about how his mother and father don’t consider in Jesus. They don’t take him to church. They don’t need something to do with it. And he was searching for neighborhood. And in order that perked up in me, the neighborhood that we've got. We have a Discord group, which is an software the place individuals can come on and chat and be part of communities. And so I mentioned, “Hey, we have this gaming place where people like you who may be new Christians or have been Christians for a while can come and meet others, game together, build community, but foster friendships and get resources on how they can then share the gospel with others.” And so inside that hour that I talked to Huska, he was like, “I know that God brought you into this space today to talk to me, to encourage me and then to invite me in.”(05:29):Within in all probability six hours or so, he was in our discord and speaking with different individuals and now he’s part of our neighborhood.Ann (05:37):So Frank, how did you guys fall into this? You’ve identified one another for some time. It’s not such as you’re these teenage boys. You guys are married with households. First of all, inform us about that half. You’ve been married for some time.Frank (05:52):Yeah. So I've been desirous about how God is utilizing expertise within the church areas and in crew, FamilyLife, and the way he’s constructing his kingdom. And it was 2022 in the summertime that I heard a couple of explicit webinar or a day of various talks. I used to be listening and performing some work and completely different individuals received on and shared slightly bit from this angle, expertise and church and expertise. But then one man received on, his title is Pastor Brock, and he simply received on there and mentioned, “I go into virtual reality. I share my faith. You got to come.” And it was a name. It was an invite.Ann:He mentioned, “Come with me.”Frank:And he’s simply saying, “Please, all you who are listening, come with me.” And I believed, “I want to go.” I hadn’t been in VR or something. And I knew some online game, and we had been attempting to do some online game stuff, however digital actuality, I didn’t have expertise with that.(06:46):And I believed, so I talked to my spouse and mentioned, “Actually, Beth, hey, I heard this thing. What would you think if we got a headset?” And she’s like, “Okay.”Dave (06:57):You didn’t actually have a headset?Frank (06:59):I didn’t have a headset or something. I’m captivated by this Pastor Brock. His invitation include me to share the gospel, minister to individualsDave (07:07):It seems like when mentioned that, I mentioned, “Remember Jesus saying come and see.”Frank (07:10):Come and see. And it actually was.Dave (07:12):It was similar to an invite.Frank (07:12):It was an invite.Dave (07:13):Come have a look.Ann:How outdated had been your youngsters then?Frank (07:14):So I assume it was 14, 16, and 18 at the moment. This was 4 years in the past.Ann (07:21):We’re like, “Do we have the coolest dad in the world?” Did they suppose that?Frank (07:25):Well, really, I requested my son who was 18 and he’s actually into tech and I mentioned, “John, can you help me set this up?” So I went to Best Buy. I received one. I got here dwelling and, “Hey, can you help me with this?” He’s like, “Sure.” And he will get it and fiddles with it. And so I reached out to this Pastor Brock and requested him extra. And so I need to do that. And so I went into the platform and this system, VRChat. There’s various them on the market, however this one specifically is plenty of chatting happening. People are partaking each other, and I simply jumped in. I’ll share this actually rapidly. So I’m in my lounge and my spouse Beth is there and one among my daughters and it’s nighttime and I put it on and I’m like, “Okay, I’m going to do this.”(08:07):And I get in there; I’m form of wanting round. So I’m bodily in my lounge with the headset and I’m wanting round and hastily, I noticed this creature, like this ball after which these little eyes on prime after which a voice got here and it was a very younger child. He says, “I’m not scary. I’m just young.” And then simply scurried off. I believed, “Whoa.”Dave (08:33):So you design your individual little—what do you name it?Frank (08:35):You could make your individualJonathan:—avatar.Dave:—avatars.Frank:—avatar, yeah. And this explicit avatar, it simply caught me off guard and I simply form of turned throughout and it was like proper subsequent to me. And I used to be like, “Wow.” And so I began exploring. I began speaking to some mates and, “Hey, we want to do that.” And they began going and that’s how I received into digital actuality. Now there’s various—the time period I’ve heard is platforms or functions. There’s a bunch of them on the market, however this explicit one which Ober and I am going is primarily arrange for dialog and speaking. It’s VRChat. Now there are video games, individuals play pool and conceal and search and there’s a bunch of video games, however plenty of worlds are simply set as much as have conversations.Dave (09:15):I imply, is it usually as you stroll in, like let’s speak VRChat, is it usually gentle and up or is there darkness?Ann (09:24):Yeah, mother and father are like, “This sounds dangerous.”Dave (09:26):I imply, instantly if you mentioned slightly child, a dad or mum goes, “Oh, this is where trafficking and bad things happen.”Frank (09:32):Yeah, there's dangerous issues.Dave (09:33):So I’m positive there’s a few of that. And the opposite facet is considering guys such as you getting into there with the sunshine of Jesus like, “Wow, that’s a really good thing.” So is it each and?Jonathan (09:42):Yeah, I might say it’s each and. I imply, there are undoubtedly worlds which might be like, you’re going to go to a bar or a nightclub or worse. And inside these, as a result of despite the fact that there’s a limitation, an age restriction of like you must be 13 and up, no one follows that. And so there are little youngsters in there and there’s different areas the place you may go in and you'll say no matter you need. Nobody’s policing the language. Now, as customers, when you’re in there, if someone is particularly such as you possibly have some racism or some very coarse language and that you would be able to click on on them and you'll mute them so that you simply simply don’t have to listen to it. And I’ve finished that. I feel you’ve in all probability finished that too.Frank (10:22):You may even go a step additional after which similar to conceal them from view like they don’t even exist. Boom, they’re gone. They may very well be proper in entrance of you they usually disappear.Jonathan (10:30):Yeah. And I used to be going to say on prime of such as you had shared slightly bit about your youngsters and experiencing you being in there, I've two daughters and each of them have been in, not essentially in VRChat, however I do know one among my daughters, she and I've gone in along with the identical thought of like, “Hey, let’s have conversation with people.” Because I’m 43, some individuals, as quickly as you say like, “Hey, I’m 43” in the event that they ask and I’m like, “Yeah, I’m 43.” And they’re like, “Oh, I’m done. I’m not having a conversation with you.”Ann (10:57):Yeah.Jonathan (10:57):Or they discover out you begin sharing about Jesus, typically that turns individuals off. And so my daughter, who's 16, who has been getting into VR for in all probability three years now—so proper on the 13 age—she will be able to go in and have conversations that I'll by no means have. And she shares Jesus and shares issues that she’s studying. She’s at a Christian faculty, so she’s studying Bible verses. She’s studying the tales, the passages, and she or he’s sharing with these different individuals and making mates, taking part in video games, making mates and sharing Jesus.Dave (11:29):Our monetary companions are the heartbeat of this ministry. And if you be a part of this month-to-month giving neighborhood, you’re not simply donating, you’re constructing one thing everlasting.Ann (11:40):And we’d be so honored to have you ever on the journey with us. We actually would. So right here’s the query, will you be a part of us at this time?Dave (11:49):I hope your reply is sure. And whether it is, go to FamilyLifeToday.com. You can click on the donate button proper there and turn out to be part of the month-to-month companion program.Ann (12:01):Is this your ministry? You’re each on FamilyLife workers, however is this type of like a manner that you simply evangelize and it’s ministry?Frank (12:10):Well, really I'm with one other staff in Cru.Ann (12:13):That’s proper.Frank (12:13):Actually, two groups however initially my fundamental staff—really now I’m form of serving on two groups—is neither of them had been actually doing this at first and I wasn’t all plugged in. So I actually felt like I really like area ministry. I like to share my religion. I like to go together with different individuals, study with them, do it with them.Ann (12:31):You’ve been a missionary in Turkey.Frank (12:32):Right. So we had been there within the Middle East various years and I find it irresistible. I missed it. And so lunchtime afforded me like, Hey, proper right here on the headquarters, I might simply put this on and press it in a single minute. I’m linked. And so we began doing this at lunch and it was a ministry and it's a ministry. As it turned out, Jesus Film has really put collectively a staff the place now they’re specializing in digital actuality.Dave:Really?Frank:And so I’m part-time with Jesus movie.Dave:What’s that appear to be?Ann:That’s Incredible.Frank:Yeah. And in order that they’ve received a staff that’s targeted on AI and VR, and these are two focal factors they usually week in and week out, and so now I can do it partly as a task and nonetheless a ministry. I imply, evenings, weekends typically like I do. But it began off as lunch and the group that goes collectively at lunch, and truly simply this final time when Ober was there, we’ve received a gaggle of us that each week goes in and simply we assemble, we come right into a room, we speak slightly bit the way you’re doing.Ann (13:30):Do you all go into the identical room?Frank (13:31):Go to the identical room.Jonathan (13:32):We begin out at a spot that we've got picked out so far as like that is our hub and we go in there and we speak slightly bit, share slightly bit about what’s happening in one another’s lives in addition to praying for our subsequent step for the place we’re going to go.Frank (13:44):And then two by two or typically three, typically all 4 of us say, “Hey, let’s go check out that world.” And you possibly can scroll and also you say, “What about that world today?” Or “Oh, my friend Jim is there. Let’s go visit him.” And each week we simply go, we exit. And I'll say this too, it’s thrilling that this staff with the Jesus movie, one among our mates, Stewart, who is definitely been—he really, the Lord used the VR to assist convey him to Christ and he’s returned to proceed to do that. This is his fundamental position. This is his fundamental factor. We’re doing it part-time as a ministry, however yeah, it’s rising and the Jesus movie staff has received a devoted staff to succeed in these individuals.Dave (14:25):I imply, it’s actually, you guys know this. It’s what occurs on faculty campuses even at this time with Cru, with completely different ministries the place they huddle, they pray, let’s exit. My first ever Christian assembly on the Ball State campus the place I used to be taking part in quarterback. I’d simply come to Christ. I am going to this; it’s referred to as Prime Time. It was Cru, proper?Frank (14:47):I keep in mind.Dave (14:48):And my discipler was a married scholar, mentioned, “You got to go to this meeting.” And once more, I’m model new and I’m like strolling to it embarrassed.Ann (14:56):So it’s such as you’re going to a portal.Dave (14:59):Yeah. I imply, the whole lot you simply described, I skilled that night time. I am going—that is fairly humorous although. I sit within the again row. I didn’t know anyone. And Bill, my buddy wasn’t there after which the man will get as much as give the message, you received’t consider this. He goes, “Hey, tonight’s going to be a little different. Instead of me speaking, we’re going to pair up two by two, and we’re going to go out to the campus and share the gospel.” He says, “So find somebody—” And I stand up and I’m out as a result of I’m like, “No, I’m brand new. This is not what—” And I’m actually strolling by way of the foyer of this dorm space and I’m going again to my dorm room and Bill comes operating in. He goes, “Where are you going?” I am going, “Bill, they’re going out to share Christ. That’s not me.”(15:41):He goes, “No, no, you go with me.” I am going, “No, Bill, I don’t know.” “No, you don’t even have to talk. You pray; I’ll talk.” So I am going, that is fairly humorous. First man, open door, we go in, I’m sitting on a mattress.Ann (15:54):It’s simply what you guys are doing nearly.Dave (15:56):I imply if you mentioned this like, “Wow, this is still able to do it in a—” Anyway, I’ll finish with this. This is so humorous as a result of I’m sitting on this mattress throughout from this dude and Bill, and Bill’s received The Four Spiritual Laws. This is again within the 70s and he begins speaking to this man. Well, you recognize what occurred? I watched Bill lead this man to Jesus.Frank (16:15):On that first day; that’s fantastic.Dave (16:16):It reworked my life. So consider that second in my life. You’re doing that in a brand new world; in a world no one even thinks is feasible.Ann (16:26):You might have created an avatar that no one would’ve identified.Dave (16:29):Yeah.Ann (16:29):What are your avatars?Frank (16:32):Mine’s an anime determine with the ball cap and this coat. Yeah. I was a raccoon and I used to be like, “Okay, I think I’ll switch it now.” And I imply, you are able to do something, a dragon, you may make a Ball State quarterback avatar. It’d be simple sufficient and simply design it and stroll round.Dave (16:49):I don’t suppose that may be very engaging, however what do you—Jonathan (16:51):So my title is Jonathan, and so I am going in as Jonathan from Hotel Transylvania, which is an animated film. And the rationale I selected is as a result of one, we share the identical title, and two, he's somebody that when individuals see him, they’re like, “Oh, you’re—” And I’m like, “Jonathan from Hotel Transylvania” and that begins a dialog as a result of it’s one thing that's acquainted. And in order that’s why I’ve chosen that avatar. You can go and be a Teenage Ninja Turtle or Spider-Man or Lego Spider-Man or a cat or a canine, like a dragon. There are, once more, in case you suppose it, someone in all probability made an avatar for it.Dave (17:29):Really?Jonathan (17:30):Yeah.Frank (17:30):Yeah. And the worlds in VRChat, I learn someplace they are saying there’s 25,000 worlds that individuals have made. We every get a house world if you first join, you simply get your individual little house, however something, I imply, this studio, you possibly can simply make it precisely. You can put tables and chairs and lightweight the whole lot. You can go in and stroll round in a VRChat world that is rather like this.Ann:That somebody created.Jonathan (17:54):That somebody created, yeah.Frank (17:55):That somebody created. I imply, there’s McDonald’s, there’s 7-Eleven, there’s like—Jonathan (17:59):There’s a movie show.Frank (17:59):There’s a movie show. I imply, individuals, seashores and castles and dungeons and spaceships and tree home, you make no matter you need.Dave (18:07):I imply, is there something destructive about getting into this world and attempting to succeed in individuals?Ann (18:13):Would you permit your youngsters to do it with none form of—Jonathan:Like unsupervised?Ann:Yes.Jonathan (18:18):Yeah. First off, as a dad or mum, you must know your youngsters and you must perceive that there are risks everytime you’re in digital areas, not to mention real-life locations. And so for our daughters, it was all the time concerning the communication. So every time they might play a online game or go into VR, my thought is all the time, “What are your plans? What are you going to do?”Ann (18:37):Do you say that to them?Jonathan:Yes.Ann:Yeah. I feel it’d be good to instruct mother and father on the best way to have these conversations.Jonathan (18:43):Now it’s on the level the place we've got requested them that query sufficient that now they’re like, “I’m going into VR to play X, Y, Z game,” or “I’m going to play on the Nintendo Switch and I’m going to play Mario Kart” or no matter it may be. And in order that’s simply, I might say stage one is simply talk what are your plans? Because if we, simply as Christians, if we go into areas the place we don’t have a plan, then normally the dangerous issues occur or issues we don’t intend to occur. And so that may be half one. And then half two is simply being clever in what they’re doing. So like if they are saying, “I’m going into VRChat.” “Okay, what is VRChat?” in case you don’t know what's VRChat? And ask them to form of present you. There are methods that you would be able to really forged the headset to a TV or to a cellphone with the intention to see precisely what they’re doing.Frank (19:29):Everything you see.Jonathan (19:30):So even at first, in case you’re like, “Hey, I really want to be a part of this and want to understand what you’re doing, can we cast that to the phone or can we cast that to the TV and then I’ll watch.” And then after some time, hopefully that builds belief in your child, your scholar, in what they’re doing and also you’ll be capable of see like, “Hey, maybe this isn’t the best place to go.” The different factor is I might say, our daughters have mates which might be additionally doing this, in order that they’re getting into collectively. So in the event that they’re not going with me, they’re going with a good friend after which it’s simply our coverage that you must keep collectively. It’s simple to get misplaced in a few of these locations by way of somebody coming and possibly badgering you. If you are attempting to share the love of Jesus and also you’re sharing the Bible, it’s simple to get distracted.(20:15):You see one thing shiny, you see a brand new portal and possibly need to go into that, nevertheless it’s our coverage, keep together with your good friend or stick with dad when he’s in there. I don’t essentially should be part of these conversations that they’re having with different individuals, however the cool factor is I can step again as an avatar and my cone of listening to within the recreation may very well be proper on the cusp of the place they’re standing. And so I can nonetheless hear them, however I’m not of their house. And so I can construct that belief with my scholar, with my baby and see like, okay, they’re doing what they're referred to as to do on this house.Ann (20:47):Are there predators on this space that it's a must to warn your youngsters about and the way would you—Frank (20:51):Yeah. When we discuss a few of these VR areas, various platforms, VRChat particularly is fairly darkish and it’s fairly—technically they've some guidelines about like hacking and all that, however so far as what individuals say, what they do, they’re virtually something, they’re simply issues are taking place. And so I like what Ober mentioned, you’re actually going with someone else, going with a gaggle and being there collectively, however it is extremely darkish in a few of these locations and simply—Ann (21:17):And but you guys are strolling into these areas plenty of occasions collectively to be a light-weight.Frank (21:23):Yeah, for positive.Ann (21:23):So you’re not essentially saying to your little youngsters, “Yeah, go on in there.”Frank (21:26):Right.Ann (21:27):But you’re saying we’d wish to go and be a light-weight and affect others for the gospel.Frank (21:30):Yeah.(21:31):And I'll add too, so I discussed there’s various platforms. Roblox is definitely one which possibly you’ve heard. I do know plenty of mother and father have youngsters or grandkids which might be taking part in Roblox on the iPads and their telephones and that. So Roblox is, I consider, the biggest metaverse platform presently. I feel my good friend on the Jesus movie staff, Bruce was saying, I feel there was like over 300 billion month-to-month energetic customers.Ann:Wow.Frank:So Roblox is completely different in that they’re actually into safety attempting to maintain it secure as a result of there’s plenty of youngsters there. They’re aiming this for teenagers. And so their guidelines and they're going to boot individuals out, they monitor the belongings you say in that. And so that could be a a lot safer one, though there nonetheless are individuals, predators and attempting to go in there, however a lot completely different platform. The really feel is completely different.(22:17):So if my child is actually into Roblox, I'd say, “Hey, you’re playing it, you’re with your friends. Have you thought about how the Lord could use this? How you can be having conversations?” Even easy questions, asking questions, listening to individuals. And so if persons are in Minecraft or Roblox or these areas already, how can they begin working by way of these areas for the Lord?Jonathan (22:40):One of the issues we’ve talked about with our daughters particularly is like digital citizenship. We are residents of God and what we do in the true world and the way we work together with our mates, not speaking behind their again and ensuring that we’re hospitable to them, to our neighbors, whomever it may be that comes into our life, like we’re residents. And so in these platforms, we’re digital residents the place similar to what we’re doing in actual life, are there issues that you'd do in these VR areas or in these gaming areas that you wouldn't do in entrance of mother and pa or grandma and grandpa? No. Okay, good. Let’s hold that. And so simply being a light-weight there and sharing Jesus in no matter they do.Ann (23:21):So what’s your objective? Why do you guys do that? What do you hope?Jonathan (23:24):I imply, I feel the most important objective is simply to redeem a platform that proper now doesn’t appear redeemable, but additionally, I feel the underlying is simply assembly people. Like you mentioned, there are thousands and thousands of individuals in Roblox. There are, I feel at any given time, I regarded up only in the near past, like 60 to 70,000 individuals in VRChat. And in these areas, there’s received to be not less than one individual that should know Jesus, if not tens of hundreds.Dave (23:55):What an important dialog with Jonathan and Frank a couple of world most of us don’t even know exists. It’s a metaverse, meta universe, no matter you name it. I imply, it’s a spot the place lots of people, not simply our youngsters are hanging out.Ann (24:10):Did you've gotten any thought what number of thousands and thousands of persons are in that world?Dave (24:15):No. And the truth that we as mother and father don’t typically know, we have to know. It’s one thing that can assist us. And we’re going that will help you. Frank and Jonathan put collectively a Metaverse Ministry toolkit only for you and we've got it at FamilyLifeToday.com. Just click on on the hyperlink within the present notes and this can get you began to assist navigate this metaverse. And guess what? We’re going to speak about it once more tomorrow, so be a part of us again tomorrow.Ann (24:43):FamilyLife Today is a donor supported manufacturing of FamilyLife®, a Cru® Ministry, celebrating 50 years of God’s faithfulness as marriages develop stronger and households flourish in Him. 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