“Radiance of the Seas: Sardines Dancing in Sunlit Waters”

Audio Transcript

Note: Episodes of Outside/In are created as audio segments, and some context and subtleties may be overlooked on the page. Transcripts are produced using a combination of speech recognition technology and human transcribers, and they may contain inaccuracies.

Justine Paradis: Hello, Nate. Hello, Kate.

Nate Hegyi: Hi there.

Kate Dario: Hello, Justine.

Justine Paradis: In a recent Outside/In gathering, we discussed our intentions for this episode, and Kate, you shared a story about something that occurred to you recently. Would you mind recounting that tale?

Kate Dario: Sure. I was celebrating my birthday with some friends. They were presenting me with very nice and considerate gifts. One of my closest friends arrived with several individually packaged small boxes. I had an inkling of what they were since we share a particular interest. As it turned out, my assumption was correct. They were a stunning collection of various canned fish.

MUSIC: Windows, Mia Pfirrman

Kate Dario: It was an incredible birthday present. We basically created the fish equivalent of a charcuterie platter afterward, and it was extraordinarily delightful.

Nate Hegyi: I have been entirely oblivious to the term tinned fish. It sounds so much more appealing than what I typically envision, which is just cheap sardines.

Kate Dario: Absolutely. I feel that tinned fish, which is essentially the sophisticated term for fish in a can, has somehow experienced a kind of rebranding that feels similar to receiving exquisite gourmet chocolate, flowers, or a nice bottle of wine. It’s akin to a delicacy.

Nate Hegyi: So this isn’t like your typical Chicken of the Sea or Bumble Bee cans.

Kate Dario: Oh no. I believe part of the allure is it brings a taste of the Iberian Peninsula to brighten your uninspiring pantry, you know, with all the colors and excitement.

Justine Paradis: They look lovely.

Kate Dario: Indeed, they’re beautiful!

Nate Hegyi: I’ve never encountered this concept before. Is this a TikTok trend, what is this about?

Justine Paradis: It seems inconceivable to me that you haven’t heard of this, Nate. Perhaps this highlights the differences in our interests, I suppose.

Nate Hegyi: Also, as we’re discovering, I haven’t been on Instagram. I just started listening to Chappell Roan; that’s where I stand.

Kate Dario: I believe Chappell Roan and tinned fish exist within the same extended universe.

Justine Paradis: Yes, I think that too. It’s like— a stunning individual, all dressed up, opening a can of pungent fish; they’re so messy and oily—it reminds me of that situation earlier this year when Chappell Roan confronted a photographer who was being incredibly rude in a photo line—it was like, we’re not putting up with this! We are savoring stinky fish, and you can just handle it.

Kate Dario: I know! What a wave of feminism—

Justine Paradis: Fish feminism.

Kate Dario: Fish feminism. We are riding the wave of fish feminism now.

Nate Hegyi: Fish wave feminism, I’m all in.

MUSIC FADE

Justine Paradis: So, it appears we are experiencing what some are dubbing a “tinned fish renaissance.” And we’re not alone in this sentiment. A listener recently left us a voicemail on our show’s hotline inquiring about tinned fish, specifically sardines.

Jeannie Bartlett: Hi, Outside/In, this is Jeannie calling from Montpelier, Vermont.

There are plenty of good reasons to eat sardines. They’re rich in protein and omega-3 fatty acids, and they contain minimal mercury because they sit low on the food chain. I’ve always had an impression that they’re also a more eco-friendly fish, perhaps due to their position on the food chain. Yet, I’m realizing I really don’t have any idea what the actual fishing process for sardines looks like…

Um, just curious. And if you find it intriguing as well, then cool!

Justine Paradis: Are we intrigued?

Nate Hegyi: Yeah!

Justine Paradis: Essentially, this is a personal inquiry, Jeannie.

Nate Hegyi: Naturally, Jeannie. I am very curious.

Kate Dario: Same here. Same here.

MUSIC: Forever After, Major Tweaks

Nate Hegyi: Welcome to Outside/In. I’m Nate Hegyi. I’m joined by Kate Dario and Justine Paradis. This week, we’re dedicating an entire episode to addressing this inquiry.

Sardines are trending. Quite literally, they’re featured in Vogue Magazine. Yet— trend aside, how sustainable are these little fish?

Jeannie Bartlett: Is bycatch a concern when it comes to sardines as well?

Nate Hegyi: What are the methods used to catch them?

Jeannie Bartlett: Is there ocean floor trawling taking place with nets being dragged along the seabed?

Nate Hegyi: What types of emissions are at play?

Jeannie Bartlett: And should I be mindful of what brand of sardines I purchase, or are there certain labels or cues I should look for when buying sardines?

Nate Hegyi: What’s the situation with sardines?

Jeannie Bartlett: Thank you so much. Goodbye!

//

Justine Paradis: Do any of you have individuals in your lives who consider sardines to be quite stinky and unpleasant?

Nate Hegyi: Yes. My wife literally won’t allow me to eat sardines at home.

Kate Dario: Certainly, my parents cannot grasp why I and my friends are enamored with eating sardines. Like dressing up nicely, trying to look glamorous, pouring a glass of wine, and then saying, all right, let’s bring out the sardines…sardines. They were like, aren’t you ladies supposed to be trendy or something? Or why are you consuming sardines at this moment? So undoubtedly I think there’s a generational gap.

Justine Paradis: So it may appear that this tinned fish revival is a recent development because at least in the US, there is a sentiment of aversion towards odorous fish. However, I believe you could also contend that this perception of tinned fish as unpleasant might be somewhat of a historical blip, since, for instance, the stunning artistic designs on sardine cans aren’t a 21st-century occurrence. I discovered a digital archive of Portuguese tinned fish packaging dating back to the 19th century. Many of them carry a very French Nouveau type of Moulin Rouge aesthetic.

Nate Hegyi: Mm.

Justine Paradis: So this has existed for quite some time.

Malin Pinsky: they have played a significant role in human nutrition, food security, and economies for likely centuries…

Justine Paradis: This is Malin Pinsky, a marine scientist at the University of California, Santa Cruz. Let’s discuss a bit about what sardines are. There is a rationale that Jeannie and all of us have seemingly been operating under.

Malin Pinsky: It is, I must say, you know, consuming small, rapidly growing fish that feed low on the food chain, right? They’re not far removed from sunlight. Essentially, they’re swimming sunlight a couple of steps away which is very sustainable. There are an immense quantity of them out in the ocean.

Nate Hegyi: Swimming sunlight? What does he imply by that?

Justine Paradis: Yeah, so, due to the fact that sunlight is the energy source for nearly all life on this planet – in the end, all of us are fundamentally translating sunlight into our vitality, I guess. Plants do that directly – but those of us who can’t photosynthesize must accept our place of being one or two links away. But since sardines are really low on the food chain – they consume plankton which are very tiny marine plants and organisms – they’re effectively swimming sunlight.

MUSIC: Aquarius, David Celeste

Justine Paradis: Generally, sardines are relatively small, rapidly growing fish. You’ll often hear them referred to as pelagic, which means they inhabit the open ocean rather than benthic, which pertains to the sea floor. They thrive in coastal upwelling zones, but who doesn’t? These areas are where cold, nutrient-rich water rises to the surface, like off California. This means an abundance of plankton to consume. They swim in VAST schools. It is truly an incredible sight. The annual sardine migration off South Africa is one of the largest migrations globally in terms of biomass — this sardine run stretches 4 miles long, a mile wide, and 30 m deep. Just miles of fish.

Nate Hegyi: Oh my gosh, that would be amazing to witness.

Justine Paradis: I once viewed a documentary about this sardine run and it was truly OPERATIC in terms of the creatures that arrive – first the birds, then the tuna, then the dolphins, and finally the whales. It’s astounding.

The Ocean’s Greatest Feast trailer: It’s a mass migration of sardines. The reason they gather remains a mystery, but the outcome is a banquet that will sustain an entire coastline of creatures.

Kate Dario: This sounds like they ought to create a sequel to “March of the Penguins.” “March of the Sardines.” It sounds truly beautiful.

Malin Pinsky: Because the schools can become exceptionally large and they undergo significant peaks in abundance, they hold substantial importance for fisheries.

Justine Paradis: Hence, these massive sardine migrations also represent a lucrative industry. One analysis I came across estimated the worth of the global sardine market at nearly $10 billion per year – and that’s solely for CANNED sardines. So there are plenty of them. However, of course, we’re here to inquire if consuming sardines is sustainable?

Zach Koehn: So “sustainability” is somewhat a… it’s a perplexing term. It’s becoming increasingly ambiguous, I would assert.

Justine Paradis: This is Zach Koehn. He is a data research scientist at the Stanford Center for Ocean Solutions. Zach emphasized that there are numerous dimensions to the concept of sustainability regarding fisheries – and everything else. The listener who posed this question, Jeannie, also pointed out a few concerns. The first thing she brought up was…

Jeannie Bartlett: Is there bycatch that occurs with sardines too?

Justine Paradis: … bycatch.

MUSIC: Pattern View, David Celeste

Justine: So shall we begin there?

Kate Dario: Yes.

Nate Hegyi: Yes. This is akin to when they’re using those large nets through the ocean and like, they’re capturing sea turtles and dolphins and such.

Justine Paradis: Exactly.

Zach Koehn: Any fishery will encounter challenges with taking unintended catches or non-target species. It’s similar to how farmers consistently deal with, you know, birds on their crops and similar issues.

Justine Paradis: A fishery, by the way, is a somewhat ambiguous term but it essentially refers to a specific area of the ocean/types of fish – it can be delineated by the species being caught, the geographical aspect – or… by the harvesting method. Like, Jeannie inquired about trawling.

Jeannie Bartlett: where the nets are dragged along the seabed

Justine: So this involves dragging a net either along the bottom or through the midwater. Fishermen trawl to catch fish that prefer the seafloor. Such as cod, haddock, squid, and shrimp in particular.

Nate: Okay.

Justine Paradis: But it “essentially [disturbs] the seabed.” It churns up sand on the ocean floor, uproots plants and habitats, disrupts organisms buried in the sand… you understand.

Kate: mhm.

Justine: Sardines, on the other hand, reside closer to the water’s surface, so the method differs. They are captured using a type of net known as a purse seine.

Zach Koehn: They’re generally fished in larger schools where this technique called purse seine is employed, which is a quite captivating image of a net that descends. A small boat separates from the larger vessel and effectively encircles the school, then tightens it like an old-fashioned purse before lifting it up so it never touches the seabed.

Justine Paradis: Does that clarify things?

Nate Hegyi: Yeah. Scoops them up.

Kate Dario: Cinches them.

Justine Paradis: Yes. Indeed. So via the purse seine method, fishers can go out and specifically target a school of fish. Thus, in a sense, it’s less arbitrary.than, for example, longlining, which involves deploying a fishing line that stretches, like, miles with numerous fishing hooks attached to capture, such as tuna and swordfish. However, with purse seines, there are issues related to bycatch. As per NOAA, in U.S. fisheries, the species most frequently ensnared include bottlenose dolphins and humpback whales.

Kate Dario: Wow. Indeed. You’re acquiring a lot more than you anticipated. If you’re aiming to catch a tiny sardine and instead haul in a humpback whale!

Justine Paradis: I know. This is significant. A caveat, however – that’s not solely regarding sardines. Purse seines are in fact the predominant technique employed to capture fish – a vast number of tuna are caught in this manner. Yet, data on bycatch, generally speaking, remains obscure and intricate – specialists in fishery sustainability assert that bycatch in purse seine fisheries tends to be less than in alternative methods.

MUSIC SWELL AND FADE

Let’s proceed to emissions. So, Zach, he authored a paper released in 2022.

Zach Koehn: The title of the paper is The Role of Seafood in Sustainable Diets.

Justine Paradis: …which assessed the greenhouse gas impact of various facets of our diets. Essentially, it examines the nutrient-to-carbon ratio involved in the lifecycle of capturing or producing it.

Nate Hegyi: Mhm.

Justine Paradis: If you’d like to take a peek at this graph from the paper.

Nate Hegyi: Alright. There it is. Okay. We are currently viewing a graph; it covers capture fishery, aquaculture, and livestock.

Justine Paradis: To the far right, we find beef, which necessitates a considerable amount of emissions for a decent quantity of nutrients, although not the highest. Then we see nuts, which don’t consume much in emissions but are nutrient-dense. They’re located on the far left. The small pelagics, such as sardines and similar fish, fall between nuts and tubers.

Nate Hegyi: That’s incredible. So, according to his research, they offer more like value for your sustainable dollar compared to seeds.

Kate Dario: Wow.

Nate Hegyi: That’s remarkable.

Kate Dario: That’s surprising to me since I do attempt to consider sustainability, or rather I strive to be mindful of the environment when I eat. My general guideline has always been that items that grow from the earth are preferable to something like fish or any kind of meat or animal byproducts. So that’s intriguing. I honestly would not have anticipated that.

Justine Paradis: You can see that it is the only meat positioned on the left side of the chart.

Zach Koehn: If you’re considering it from the perspective of having a minimal environmental impact, small pelagics, all those little fish like sardines or herring or anchovy, are actually quite low in emissions. The reason lies in their fishing methods. They’re generally fished in larger schools.

Justine Paradis: Do you recall the purse seine technique?

Nate Hegyi: Yes.

Justine Paradis: Sardine fishers scoop entire schools of fish? This is usually done relatively close to the shore, and on a single expedition, fishers can secure a substantial haul, particularly since the technology in the fishing industry is remarkably efficient these days. For example, you can pinpoint schools of fish with sonar and know their exact location, right? In contrast, look at lobsters, which ranked significantly higher in that ratio. They exhibited considerably more emissions. They hovered around the levels of lamb and beef. This is due to the fact that capturing lobsters demands multiple trips. first, you venture out to set the traps, let them sit for several days, and then you return to check them again. And it’s not a large quantity of lobsters compared to the extensive school of sardines, correct?

Nate Hegyi: That’s fascinating.

Kate Dario: That’s really interesting. If we’re assessing small pelagics, does that take into account the carbon footprint of the boat and the canning facility?

Justine Paradis: Good inquiry. It concludes prior to the canning facility…

Kate Dario: Hmm.

Nate Hegyi: Alright.

Justine Paradis: However, Malin Pinsky, who was not part of Zach’s research, made an excellent observation regarding this. Consider the logistics involved in airfreighting fresh fish from Alaska, say, to a dinner plate in New York City.

Malin Pinsky: Compare that to tightening something close to where it’s captured, and then shipping it as slowly as you wish, as it’ll be preserved for months or years.

MUSIC: Bounced Back, Blue Topaz

Justine Paradis: I’m feeling a bit hungry. Should we take a short break to savor some tinned fish?

Kate Dario: Music to my ears.

Nate Hegyi: Yes. Let’s do it.

Kate Dario: Yeah. Honestly, I feel like I lack the wrist strength to open these without spilling olive oil.

Justine Paradis: I know, the risks we take while reporting are just…

Kate Dario: Are you two just diving in?

Nate Hegyi: Mhm.

Justine Paradis: So, we each brought two cans. Let’s go through them loosely by price – starting with Nate, who brought Season.

Nate Hegyi: These are the ones available at Costco. They claim they were fished in a locale called the Atlantic Ocean.

Kate Dario: I think I’ve heard of that!

Nate Hegyi: They’re quite delicious.

Justine Paradis: Great. Uh, Kate, you picked up a can from the New England staple brand, Pastene –

Kate Dario: I believe it’s headquartered in Canton, Massachusetts. In the fine print, it says “Product of Morocco.” But they’re not attempting to sell you, like a Spanish vacation or anything….

Nate Hegyi: Right.

Kate Dario: These were around $2.50.

Justine Paradis: Now, moving into the cans branded as slightly higher-end. Nate, how would you describe the vibe of that large can of Bar Harbor sardines?

Nate Hegyi: You’re enjoying this while seated on a dock, wearing plaid. It has a smoky, natural wood smoke flavor, but, I don’t know, just packed in water. I’m not a huge fan. I prefer the olive oil.

Justine Paradis: Kate, you also visited the coop and grabbed a $6 can of sardines in olive oil from a brand called – is it Matiz?

Kate Dario: M-A-T-I-Z. Pero es español. Así que realmente dice en la parte posterior que se pronuncia “mateeth”. Así que, no para hacer la cosa de Barcelona, sino como Matisse, supongo. Tienen un pequeño mapa de Galicia… mmm, delicioso.

Justine Paradis: Bueno, tuve que recoger una lata de, sin duda, la marca de sardinas elegante por excelencia. Esta fue una lata de $10. Son sardinas en aceite de oliva con limón confitado – y son de Fishwife.

Nate Hegyi: Oh, eso es precioso. Como, parece que fue dibujado a mano. Es simplemente hermoso.

Kate Dario: Siento que es más probable ver Fishwife en una boutique de moda, de verdad, que en un supermercado de verdad donde compras tus víveres.

Justine Paradis: De hecho, Fishwife se ha convertido en una verdadera moda – han colaborado con Lisa says Gah!, esta marca de moda en internet, para vender collares de sardinas y camisetas. Y, de hecho, estuve en Nueva York recientemente, en Soho, y Fishwife estaba haciendo una tienda pop-up. Y al día siguiente de mi visita, había una fila alrededor de la manzana para que la gente pudiera entrar.

Nate Hegyi: Vaya. Esto es mucho más popular de lo que jamás imaginé.

Justine Paradis: Eso realmente satisface. Tengo tanta hambre.

Nate Hegyi: Me siento mal por mi micrófono. Tengo un aliento terrible en este momento.

Justine Paradis: Bien, en realidad, um, no me gusta cuando la gente come en la radio. Así que estamos haciendo algo que va en contra de mis preferencias.

Kate Dario: Todo lo que representas.

Justine Paradis: Esta fue quizás una idea profundamente imprudente. ¿Qué piensas? ¿Deberíamos tomar un descanso?

Nate Hegyi: Tomemos un descanso. Volveremos enseguida.

BREAK

Nate Hegyi: Bienvenidos de nuevo a Outside/In. Soy Nate Hegyi aquí con algunos miembros de nuestro equipo. Kate Dario y Justine Paradis. El tema del día es, por supuesto, el renacimiento de los pescados enlatados, algo que nunca había escuchado hasta que comenzamos a hacer este episodio. Y específicamente la sostenibilidad de las sardinas.

Justine Paradis: Sí, hemos llegado quizás a la pregunta más importante. Um, en realidad, todas son preguntas importantes. No necesito clasificarlas aquí, pero la pregunta ahora es ¿qué pasa con la sobrepesca? Así que, tal vez si las sardinas no son tan malas en la escala de emisiones, eso es genial. Pero, ¿estamos en riesgo de agotar los océanos? Y la respuesta corta es, sí.

MÚSICA: Checkered Blue (Steady Pulse), Blue Dot Sessions

Justine Paradis: Las sardinas, como las anchoas y el arenque, son peces pequeños y de rápido crecimiento en comparación con especies de vida más larga como los tiburones y el atún. De esas dos categorías, intuitivamente, ¿cuál imaginan que sería la más vulnerable a la sobrepesca?

Nate Hegyi: Atún.

Kate Dario: Definitivamente el atún. Siento que la gente, esa es una conversación que la gente tiene, y nunca he escuchado a nadie repartir un volante de Salva las Sardinas o algo por el estilo.

Justine Paradis: Sí. Y hay algo en eso. Siento lo mismo. Hay muchas sardinas por ahí, pero ¿hay suficientes sardinas en este renacimiento de conservas del siglo XXI?

Malin Pinsky: En el pasado, había esta asunción de que debíamos tener mucho cuidado con las especies de crecimiento lento, pero tal vez no debamos preocuparnos tanto por las especies de rápido crecimiento porque pueden superar nuestra capacidad de pescarlas.

Justine Paradis: Malin Pinsky, el biólogo marino del que escuchamos anteriormente, investigó esta cuestión.

Malin Pinsky: ¿Existen ciertos tipos de especies que son más propensas a colapsar a baja abundancia, por lo que podríamos predecir cuáles serán en el futuro? Y miramos nuestros gráficos y revisamos los datos y lo hicimos de nuevo. Y simplemente nos dijimos, espera un momento, esto no tiene sentido. Luego nos dimos cuenta de que, en realidad, lo que la información nos estaba diciendo es que estas especies pequeñas, de vida corta y de rápido crecimiento son igualmente propensas a colapsar a baja abundancia como las especies que ya sabíamos que estaban en problemas, y eso fue realmente una sorpresa.

Justine Paradis: Así que las sardinas pasan por ciclos de auge y caída en su población. Y esto ocurre naturalmente como parte de ciclos ambientales más grandes como El Niño. Pero la pesca puede empeorarlo. Específicamente, los científicos dicen que debemos tener cuidado de no sobrepescar durante las caídas. Básicamente no golpearles cuando están en su peor momento.

Y eso es complicado, porque vivimos en un mundo con barcos grandes, redes grandes y una demanda constante y alta.

Estamos en un renacimiento de los pescados enlatados, ¿recuerdan? Pero las sardinas no solo son demandadas por personas elegantes y con estilo como nosotros, sino también por especies como los delfines. Así que cuando las poblaciones de sardinas se ven afectadas, eso tiene un impacto en cadena en otras especies. Se llama una cascada trófica. Y la población de sardinas del Pacífico, por ejemplo, está peligrosamente baja. Así que en los últimos años, muchos leones marinos de California están muriendo de hambre. La pesquería de sardinas del Pacífico está actualmente cerrada por sobrepesca. Y recuerden esa dramática corrida operística de sardinas frente a Sudáfrica, la migración de peces más grande del planeta. Sí, también está empezando a colapsar.

Kate Dario: Vaya.

Justine Paradis: Y eso se debe a una combinación de sobrepesca y cambios ambientales. La gente piensa.

Algunos argumentan que parte del problema aquí es que las regulaciones pesqueras no son tan reactivas como necesitan serlo, no cambian tan rápidamente como las fluctuaciones ambientales requieren.

A medida que los impactos del cambio climático se intensifican, hay especies de peces que se están trasladando a nuevos lugares, lo que está causando problemas geopolíticos literalmente.

Malin Pinsky: Es algo que se ha desarrollado de manera muy dramática, en realidad en el noreste del Atlántico entre la Unión Europea e Islandia, donde el jurel, que históricamente se encontraba principalmente en aguas noruegas y europeas… luego se trasladó al norte a aguas islandesas, pero los países involucrados no han sido muy ágiles para averiguar cómo compartir esta nueva pesquería. Y eso no solo se ha quedado en pesquerías. Se ha convertido en una guerra comercial. También hay algunas sugerencias que ayudaron a convencer a Islandia de que no quería unirse a la Unión Europea.

Kate Dario: Lo único que recuerdo de mi curso Intro a la Política Internacional en mi primer año de universidad es que Islandia no se unió a la UE porque quería mantener su autonomía sobre la pesca. Así que esto es –

Nate Hegyi: ¡Vaya!

Justine Paradis: ¡Es un gran asunto!

Kate Dario: Es un gran asunto y siento que las personas nórdicas, si Islandia se considera uno de los países nórdicos, comen mucha pesca. Imagino que hay mucho arenque en escabeche o jurel. Yo también iría a la guerra por eso.Yeah.

MUSIC: Rose Petals, Revel Day

Justine Paradis: Okay. Let’s proceed to our listener Jeannie’s final inquiry:

Jeannie Bartlett: Is the brand important, or are there alternative labels or indicators I should be mindful of when purchasing sardines?

Justine Paradis: What should we search for in the supermarket? Should we discuss that?

Kate: Absolutely!

Nate Hegyi: Indeed.

Justine Paradis: Alright, let’s retrieve our sardine packages once more. The first aspect to check is any details regarding where the sardines were harvested and canned, particularly their catch location. If that information is absent or unclear on the package, it’s not a promising sign.

Nate Hegyi: Yes. One of the brands I enjoy, the Season one, is extremely ambiguous. It merely states “sustainable.” That’s it.

Justine Paradis: Yes, that’s not a legally defined term.

Nate Hegyi: No. It’s akin to “natural.” “All natural.”

Kate Dario: I’m seeing “wild caught in the eastern Atlantic,” which is a noun accompanied by a modifier. However, eastern Atlantic could refer to Namibia.

Nate Hegyi: That’s a vast body of water.

Justine Paradis: Right?

Kate Dario: It could be Iceland. So I’m realizing that could pertain to a lot of places. It does mention being canned in Galicia, even hand-packed. But my less expensive options simply state “product of Morocco.”

Justine Paradis: Alright. Hence, when considering where the sardines are sourced, you might want to steer clear of specific areas. Numerous fishery specialists assert that sardines caught in the Mediterranean are less sustainable. A combination of rising sea surface temperatures and overfishing has caused a dramatic decrease in Portuguese sardines—from approximately 200,000 tons in the 80s to under 10,000 in recent years.

Kate Dario: Oh no.

Nate Hegyi: Understood.

Justine Paradis: So, it’s crucial to be cautious regarding the sourcing of your sardines. Now, let’s discuss certifications. There are two primary organizations that many refer to. The first is the Marine Stewardship Council, or MSC. On some of our boxes, you’ll notice a square label in an ocean blue hue featuring a graphic fish. That’s present on your box, right Nate?

Nate Hegyi: Yes! That one is indeed on my box. Bar Harbor, it states certified sustainable seafood. MSC.

Justine Paradis: The MSC has an entire process for independently evaluating and certifying fisheries based on their standards. They’re examining the populations of specific fish, alongside the ecosystem and the human governance systems involved. Presently, in relation to sardines, the MSC recognizes only two sardine fisheries globally that meet its criteria: one in Cornwall, England, and the other is the Small Pelagics fishery located in Sonora in the Gulf of California.

Nate Hegyi: Oh, impressive.

Justine Paradis: As for Fishwife, I still find it somewhat perplexing. It bears the MSC label, and I know from their website that they source their sardines from Cornwall, yet that specific information isn’t on the package.

Kate Dario: Yeah. I wonder if they’re not prioritizing Cornwall, England because British cuisine may not possess the allure of the vibrant Mediterranean hues, I’ll state that.

Justine Paradis: Dude, check out Cornwall! It has the most adorable little towns. Have you ever come across The Mousehole Cat, a children’s story?

Kate Dario: No!

Justine Paradis: It resembles the scenery from that children’s tale.

Mousehole Cat clip: He maneuvered his tiny boat through the narrow passage between the grand breakwaters and into the turquoise sea to catch fish for Mouser’s supper.

Kate Dario: Oh my goodness. Yes, this is stunning.

Nate Hegyi: Absolutely. They ought to showcase Cornwall on their can. It’s breathtaking. Nestled in a vibrant harbor.

Justine Paradis: With quaint shutters and gates.

Nate Hegyi: Precisely.

Justine Paradis: It feels very much like hobbits by the sea.

Nate Hegyi: Indeed. Hobbits by the sea.

Mousehole Cat clip: On Saturdays they pickled scad with vinegar and onions. And on Sundays, they prepared stargazy pie with prime pilchards in pastry.

Justine Paradis: The other organization that many cite is Seafood Watch from Monterey Bay. This is not a label found on the can. Instead, you can visit their website to look up the seafood in question, and they utilize a traffic light system for their ratings. Green signifies go; yellow indicates caution; and red means to avoid.

Kate Dario: Can I look mine up?

Justine Paradis: You can indeed.

Nate Hegyi: Alright. So I’m there. Seafood Watch. How do you locate the business?

Justine Paradis: You don’t look for the business. It’s focused on the species.

Kate Dario: Oh, the type.

Nate Hegyi: Understood.

Kate Dario: Sardine, anchovy, and herring. Best choice. Now I’m getting puzzled because this indicates to buy sardines caught in Japan or Morocco, but it also advises to purchase sardines and herring certified by the Marine Stewardship Council. So perhaps they’re just…

Justine Paradis: Well, the reason you might encounter differing information across various sources is due to the distinct business models of these certifying organizations. Here’s marine biologist Malin Pinsky once again.

Malin Pinsky: Seafood Watch operates mainly on a philanthropic model, assisting new fisheries in becoming certified and imposing relatively less burden on them, making it more feasible for developing regions. In contrast, Marine Stewardship Council certification entails upfront costs that fisheries must pay to obtain certification, which can be prohibitively expensive, rendering it inaccessible for some fisheries that may be sustainable yet lack the means to achieve certification.

Kate Dario: Mmm. That’s rather insightful.

Nate Hegyi: It’s somewhat similar to organic, right? Like when you visit your local farmer’s market and they’re not certified organic, but you know they are organic.

Kate Dario: Absolutely, absolutely.

Justine Paradis: However, I must point out that even if you don’t consume sardines at all — your eating habits can still influence the well-being of wild sardine communities. This is due to the fact that much of the fish we capture isn’t directly ingested by humans, but is utilized for fishmeal and fish oil. A recent study indicates that over a quarter of the fish we catch serves those purposes. The technical term for this is nondirect human consumption. Where do you think much of that fishmeal and fish oil ends up?

Nate Hegyi: Uh, fish, my grandma used to take fish oil capsules.

Kate Dario: Indeed.

Nate Hegyi: Into my Grandma?

Justine Paradis: Supplements for, yes, for women. For everyone.

Kate Dario: What – is fish meal, is that like nourishment for fish?

Justine Paradis: Precisely.

Nate Hegyi: It’s included in farmed salmon’s diet, right?

Justine Paradis: It’s used for farmed salmon and livestock, or farmed fish and livestock.

Kate Dario: Whoa! Got it.

Kate Dario: So it’s like… cannibal salmon. A bit.

Justine Paradis: Well, fish do consume other fish. But yes. And a large portion of the fish that is processed into fishmeal is food-grade. So 27% of caught fish does not end up on a human plate, although the majority could have.

Nate Hegyi: Mm.

MUSIC: Drive Slow, Lofive

Justine Paradis: This is a reason to look at our diets from a comprehensive perspective and not just focus on one ingredient.

Nate Hegyi: Right, right. Exactly. And again, it’s essential to consider eating lower on the food chain, you know. Sardines rank quite low on the food chain.

Kate Dario: I believe people should use the phrase “swimming sunshine” more because.

Justine Paradis: I concur.

Kate Dario: I want that on a t-shirt. I adore that! I wish someone would give me that nickname. “Swimming sunshine” is so delightful.

Justine Paradis: Call Lisa and say Gah!

Kate Dario: I have a concept for another $78 t-shirt.

MUSIC SWELL AND FADE

Justine Paradis: I’ll mention this with the disclaimer that none of this is flawless. None of this lets us off the hook, so to speak.

Nate Hegyi: Har har.

Justine Paradis: It’s frustrating to answer these inquiries with, well, at this moment, sardines are likely more sustainable than other options for various reasons. Like for your personal health, for emissions, for ocean overexploitation, depending on the fishery you’re sourcing from. But that’s applicable right now. And it’s just something you cannot ignore if you wish to make these choices sustainably, do you understand what I mean?

Kate Dario: Mhm.

Nate Hegyi: Justine, I must say, I was genuinely worried that the only, like, super sustainable, beneficial sardines would be the $10, $11 Fishwive sardines. And I just have to express that while I wasn’t particularly fond of the flavor of the Bar Harbor sardines I purchased, they were quite affordable. And they’re still certified by the MSC. Yes.

Justine Paradis: No, I mean, it definitely opened my eyes because I think I had sort of categorically thought, sardines are acceptable.

Nate Hegyi: Mhm.

Justine Paradis: And part of what I believe these selections encourage us to do is reconnect with the specifics and the subtleties of our planet. And while it might be perceived as snooty to do that, I don’t believe it has to be.

Nate Hegyi: Mhm.

Justine Paradis: And, you know, it’s not about judging others. It’s about appreciating when you peruse the Cornwall Fishery website or delve into the documentation of the MSC, for this Cornwall fishery. You discover the actual names of the people going out fishing and most of them have been doing this for generations. You witness the town where this occurs and it’s like, I don’t wish to be detached and be subject to the flow of marketing, which is truly corporate influence, you know.

Nate Hegyi: Mhm.

Kate Dario: I completely agree; I think sometimes truly being a conscientious consumer is equated with being ostentatious or merely searching for the priciest item. And I think, you know, I’m early in my professional journey. I don’t possess a lot of discretionary income, but I strive to shop with significant intent. Much of this involves discovering the best value for your money. And I believe a lot of it relates precisely to what we’re discussing, that it isn’t always the most expensive selection. Yes. And I find it a fulfilling experience to do so.

Justine Paradis: Yes. Regrettably, I am completely sold on Fishwife. I think it’s phenomenal. So I will be spending money on–

Nate Hegyi: Um, I mean there’s also taste, right. Like

Kate Dario: it is quite good.

MUSIC: Immer Zusammen, Spiegelstadt

Nate Hegyi: Grateful to Jeannie for calling in with the question that inspired this episode. By the way, anyone can do this: our voicemail hotline number is 1-844-GO-OTTER. We love hearing from you. Please reach out with your inquiries, feedback, or show ideas. No question is too trivial or too serious.

This episode was produced, reported, and mixed by Justine Paradis. It was edited by our executive producer, Taylor Quimby, with assistance from our podcast director, Rebecca Lavoie. Our team also comprises Felix Poon and Marina Henke. I’m your host, Nate Hegyi.

Music in this segment was provided by Mia Pfirrman, Major Tweaks, David Celeste, Blue Topaz, Blue Dot Sessions, Revel Day, Lofive, and Spiegelstadt.

Special acknowledgment to Hugh French.

Outside/In is a presentation of NHPR.