Joyful Journeys Through Pop Culture: The NPR Experience

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GLEN WELDON, HOST:

In Netflix’s gritty and harsh western series “American Primeval,” Betty Gilpin portrays a woman intent on taking herself and her son across the frontier. However, during their journey, they find themselves intertwined in a brewing conflict between the federal government and a ruthless Mormon militia. A rugged guide, played by Taylor Kitsch, may offer some assistance, but the area is teeming with violent factions all claiming ownership of the blood-stained land. I’m Glen Weldon, and today we’ll discuss “American Primeval” on POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR.

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WELDON: Accompanying me today is Sam Yellowhorse Kesler, a producer for NPR’s Planet Money. Hi, Sam.

SAM YELLOWHORSE KESLER, BYLINE: Hi, Glen. I appreciate you having me. I’m sure this cordial exchange between us will conclude smoothly, free from any abrupt and brutal violence.

WELDON: Oh, I wouldn’t wager on that. Also joining us is Vulture TV critic Roxana Hadadi. Hello, Roxana.

ROXANA HADADI: Hi there.

WELDON: Let’s dive in. In “American Primeval,” Betty Gilpin embodies Sara, a woman striving to reunite herself and her son with her husband, who has settled in a town beyond the Utah territory in 1857. Yet, the frontier is a chaotic and turbulent environment. She does have some support in the shape of a compassionate settler who has established a way station for those traveling West. He is portrayed by the talented Shea Whigham. Taylor Kitsch plays a gruff recluse with a shadowy past who reluctantly – and somewhat irritably – agrees to guide Sara…

KESLER: (Laughter).

WELDON: …And her son on their expedition.

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BETTY GILPIN: (As Sara Rowell) I acknowledge that our postponed arrival has contributed to this predicament. Now, it is solely about whether you are inclined to accept the role of our guide or not.

TAYLOR KITSCH: (As Isaac) I don’t have business with crooks.

WELDON: No, he does not. It’s going to be challenging. The governor of Utah, Brigham Young, played by Kim Coates, is orchestrating a violent Mormon militia determined to keep the federal government at bay from the territory. Sara and her companions find themselves in the line of fire, alongside a group of unfortunate Mormon settlers. Add in bounty hunters, fur trappers, rebellious members of the Shoshone Nation, wolves, bears, frostbite, and gangrene, and Sara and her son will face trials in an unrelentingly brutal manner before the six-episode series concludes. “American Primeval” was authored by Mark L. Smith, who co-wrote the Leonardo DiCaprio film “The Revenant,” and you can definitely see that influence. It is currently available for streaming on Netflix. Roxana, you reviewed this for Vulture. What are your thoughts?

HADADI: I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, I am consistently attracted to an America bad story. That’s really, you know, like, my weakness. I’m like, you know what? That’s accurate. And one aspect I truly appreciated in this is that it is not a Taylor Sheridan production. It portrays a neo-western that doesn’t intersect with “Yellowstone,” “1923,” “Landman,” or any of the other series he has crafted within his own universe. It ventures into very different territory.

I mentioned in my review that this could actually be viewed as three westerns wrapped into a single series, and I believe certain subplots resonate more effectively than others. I find all the Mormon elements really intriguing. They have been explored by Jon Krakauer in his nonfiction book “Under The Banner Of Heaven.” So, for those who’ve read that…

WELDON: Right.

HADADI: …or seen the FX adaptation, some of this will feel somewhat familiar. But I appreciated the approach of really conveying just how dire things were stemming from this religious faction. I think Shea Whigham delivers an excellent performance. Kim Coates is fantastic too. However, I think the other subplots vary greatly in narrative focus, let’s phrase it that way.

WELDON: (Laughter).

HADADI: But the Mormon elements and the Shea Whigham narratives, I’m very favorable towards.

WELDON: Absolutely. The way this is structured truly makes it an ensemble piece. You will find yourself more drawn to particular elements over others. Sam, what’s your take?

KESLER: Yes, pretty similar. I was a bit ambivalent about the entire series, but I think I came away with the impression that it wasn’t particularly tailored for me. And indeed, there were certain scenes, various plotlines that caught my attention a bit more, like when Shea Whigham appears or when Dane DeHaan is present. Overall, I didn’t leave with many positive sentiments regarding this show, but I felt like its redeeming aspect was that it would enhance the reels of several actors I genuinely admire. You know, when I first started watching, I was like, that actor looks familiar. Who is that? Then I realized, oh my God, that’s Dane DeHaan. I haven’t spotted him in anything for ages…

WELDON: Right.

KESLER: …And so I really felt, you know, joy in seeing him here, as well as Shea Whigham and Betty Gilpin. I also loved how intensively the show commits itself. It never lets up for a moment.

WELDON: Indeed.

HADADI: Yeah.

KESLER: I just believed that was a major redeeming aspect of this show that otherwise wasn’t exactly my cup of tea.

WELDON: Right. Well, you mentioned Dane DeHaan. He plays Jacob Pratt, among the severely unfortunate Mormon settlers in the Mormon settler narrative. You know, I find myself agreeing with many of your sentiments. I found this to be captivating, engaging, and compelling. While it’s challenging for me to say that about something as dark and consistently grim and brutal as this, I was drawn into the storytelling. A significant factor was that Mormon subplot. The Mormon militia disguises themselves as Indigenous individuals and massacres many settlers, including the caravan that Dane DeHaan is part of. Afterward, when one of the settlers survives, the militia takes him along as they pursue the Native Americans that he believes to be the culprits. In terms of narrative, that’s a richly layered approach. It’s layers…

HADADI: Yeah.

WELDON: …Of malevolence. It’s like a turducken, a flaky croissant of malice. And it creates a suspenseful scenario about how and when they will be revealed. While I don’t believe that narrative trap was executed with the same care as it was set up, still…

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WELDON: …episodes went by where I was genuinely on edge. Shea Whigham, whom we’ve mentioned, is one of my favorites, and he seems to have a role crafted just for him.

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SHEA WHIGHAM: (As Jim Bridger) I’ve grown quite attached to this place, and I’ve also aged to the point where I am far too weary to seek another at this time of day. Thus, I would assume a sum that suits my comfort would come at a significant cost to you, governor.

HADADI: Fantastic.

WELDON: I mean, that’s the closest the series gets to humor…

HADADI: Yes.

WELDON: …Right?

HADADI: Indeed.

WELDON: Betty Gilpin. I have a soft spot for Betty Gilpin. Did I grow tired…of the manner in which she was perpetually incorrect and…

HADADI: Indeed.

WELDON: …Always for the identical reason, which is that her tender-hearted, metropolitan earnings aren’t suited for the harshness and deceit of the wilderness. I understand, right?

HADADI: Sure.

WELDON: I’m not voicing any grievances about it, but I believe that was a lesson she could have grasped much more swiftly than she does here.

KESLER: For the premier episode, step aside. Yes, and then…

WELDON: Precisely. It’s akin to…

HADADI: And there’s a multitude of elements that led her to this point previously, right? That narrative, I mean, like, I have great admiration for Taylor Kitsch. I will eternally defend “John Carter” every single day of my life.

WELDON: Alright. You’re the one. Well done.

HADADI: You know, that’s the most straightforward aspect. We have two attractive individuals, and they’re just going to clash for six episodes (laughter) until a sudden conclusion. I wish that plotline had felt more thoughtfully crafted. Or to your point, Glen, at least more intriguingly established, I suppose. I’m uncertain…

WELDON: Yes.

HADADI: …How we might have resolved…

WELDON: Yes.

HADADI: …That issue. But it’s like, I genuinely enjoy observing these two characters on screen. I appreciate their sarcasm with one another. I just needed more substance from it, I believe.

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KITSCH: (As Isaac) This is not the path we ought to take.

GILPIN: (As Sara Rowell) What? What does that imply?

KITSCH: (As Isaac) It signifies that whatever you discover down there will not be beneficial for anyone.

GILPIN: (As Sara Rowell) What about her?

KITSCH: (As Isaac) What about her?

GILPIN: (As Sara Rowell) She just mentioned her family was down there.

KITSCH: (As Isaac) If her family were down there, they’d be shouting through the trees.

GILPIN: (As Sara Rowell) Isaac, we need to at least see for ourselves.

KITSCH: (As Isaac) Abandon her.

WELDON: I would say the reason that plotline did not resonate as well as the others is due to the Taylor Kitsch factor. I mean, like…

HADADI: Aw.

WELDON: …I found that character…

HADADI: Yeah, the character.

WELDON: …One-dimensional. I – you know, I take pleasure in disliking the Jai Courtney bounty hunter persona. I adored the eerie fur trappers who appeared to don human skin, I believe. However, the Taylor Kitsch character was just – he commenced and concluded in the same place, which is rough around the edges, but, you know, reluctantly…

KESLER: The sorrowful man, deceased spouse. Yes.

HADADI: Indeed.

WELDON: Exactly.

HADADI: All the character stereotypes you anticipate. Yes.

WELDON: Precisely. Beat for beat, right? That’s the aspect that kind of took me out of it. Now, since we’ve chosen to cover this series, the critiques have emerged, and many, though not all, but many, don’t appear to concur with this program’s very explicit portrayals of violence, which there is – to be cautious – a whole lot of.

HADADI: Yes.

WELDON: Or its extremely bleak perception of humanity. I don’t know. I perceived the violence to be intermittently fitting, shall we say? If I’m watching a series set in this historical period, I ought to be witnessing this type of violence, to be honest. Regarding the show’s perspective on human beings, well, it somewhat aligns with mine. I found myself sort of nodding along, thinking, yes, that could occur. That’s what that individual would do.

HADADI: Individuals are wicked.

WELDON: Did any of you feel taken aback by any of that?

KESLER: Only slightly, in the sense that I thought, aren’t people supposed to be, like, establishing societies out here? Aren’t individuals, like, genuinely having routine jobs at times and, like, constructing things? But they merely seem to be like, no, they’re predominantly eliminating one another. Like, if you…

WELDON: Yes.

KESLER: …You know, three enter, four perish. Like, I’m unclear how that equation is precisely correlating in terms of, like, the grand, you know, American endeavor. I don’t know if that was truly how things would have panned out back then. And there was, like, a slight hint of, like, you know, bullets aren’t complimentary. Like, come on, folks.

WELDON: Yes.

KESLER: Like, you probably wouldn’t shoot that deceased person five additional times just to confirm that they’re lifeless. Let’s conserve a bit here.

HADADI: It worked for me because I think, you know, the reason I consistently revisit something like “Deadwood” is to your point, Sam. It’s about, like, what does it genuinely take to construct a society. And what I found particularly compelling here is that, like, the Mormons possess a society. Like Kim Coates as Brigham Young, I believe is, like, incredibly intriguing. And there’s this one moment where, in a single instant, he commissions, you know, the assassination of this woman and the slaughter of the Shoshone. And then, like, 30 seconds later, he encounters a Mormon family with several young daughters, and he approaches them, like, kissing them on the forehead and advising them to have more.

That, to me, indicates that, like, that society is already in existence, right? And the show is asserting, like, that’s what America evolved into, which I don’t believe is from my rather cynical, pessimistic viewpoint (laughter). I’m like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. So I do think there are, like, certain very intentional elements regarding, like, what types of individuals ended up thriving in this environment. But again, that’s why I consider that like, the Mormon subplot was the most effective. It felt the most tethered to what the show is attempting to convey about, like, what we ultimately constructed with this nation.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, “AMERICAN PRIMEVAL”)

KIM COATES: (As Brigham Young) Not for today, brethren, not for tomorrow, but one day in the future, our territory and this whole American continent will become Zion.

WELDON: Yes, I’m pleased you mentioned that, Roxana, because, as you also indicated in your Vulture review, the aspect that distinguishes this from others – perhaps the sole distinguishing feature – the element that separates it is the very unequivocal manner in which it establishes that religion played a pivotal role in the…

HADADI: Yes.

WELDON: …Concept of manifest destiny, American exceptionalism. And that is what’s accountable for all this bloodshed we’re witnessing. I mean, like, that is to confront that directly, and, you know, not subtly (laughter), but thoroughly head-on seems to me, like, okay. And also there’s an additional element that dramatically, when you initiate a character who is so ruthlessly malevolent, this is something the Greeks recognized, observing them receive their comeuppance as violently as it inevitably unfolds on the show. That is just viscerally gratifying in every aspect of the definition.

KESLER: One aspect that I genuinely appreciated about this program was that I felt like there was a substantial level of cross-pollination between all of these, like, conflicting factions where…

WELDON: Yes.

KESLER: …There were, like, backstabbers and double-dealers, and individuals – you know, there were natives collaborating with the Mormons. Naturally, the Mormons, like, feigning to be Native American themselves, but also, like, forming these alliances so they could then, like, betray others anyhow.

HADADI: I also, regarding that point, I am exceedingly pleased that there wasn’t a romance within that cross-pollination because I was very apprehensive that it was going to be, like, this lovely Mormon lady falls in love with this noble Native American warrior. I was very worried…

WELDON: Yes.

HADADI: …About that.

WELDON: They were pointing in that direction.

HADADI: Yes, there’s almost this, like, acknowledgment, I believe, regarding, like, what do both of these factions endure from, like, the white Mormon menace? But I did appreciate that it didn’t then delve into – and then they share a kiss.

KESLER: Yes.

HADADI: I’m pleased there was no kiss.

KESLER: Yes.

HADADI: Let me simply express it that way.

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SAURA LIGHTFOOT-LEON: (As Abish Pratt) How many must perish to redeem all that you have lost?

JEREMIAH BITSUI: (As Grey Fox, conversing in Shoshoni).

DEREK HINKEY: (As Red Feather, conversing in Shoshoni).

BITSUI: (As Grey Fox) As many as his God instructs him to.

LIGHTFOOT-LEON: (As Abish Pratt) Your God instructs you to slay the whites? Whites are convinced their God instructs them to eliminate you.

WELDON: It appears to me that there was quite a bit of that approaching a cliché only to retreat from it, especially in the portrayals of Indigenous individuals. There’s something at play in the show regarding the illustration of Indigenous people, as there was an Indigenous culture consultant, Julie O’Keefe, who also contributed to “Killers Of The Flower Moon,” which I mention only because it wasn’t so long ago that such matters wouldn’t have even been acknowledged. So – but the character of Red Feather, portrayed by Derek Hinkey. He’s a Shoshone warrior who is consistently referred to as the renegade, right? He seeks conflict.

In contrast to Winter Bird, played by Irene Bedard. Thus, she’s not categorized into the warrior archetype, but she is being typecast into the wise, empathetic elder role, which is stereotypical in an alternate sense. I feel the show is eager to embrace Native Americans, yet it continuously relegates them to the periphery, their narratives. I mean, if you wish to seek out the most glaring example, they introduce an Indigenous character into the main ensemble of protagonists. This is Two Moons, portrayed by Shawnee Pourier, yet they render it so she cannot articulate. They completely strip her of a voice. I sensed the good intentions but also felt a bit clumsily handled along the journey.

KESLER: Absolutely. It was particularly shocking, yes, to, like, literally deny her any voice. And then, like, she would tend to recede into the background during scenes.

WELDON: Yes.

KESLER: They effectively utilize that at one point, where the central trio of Betty Gilpin, her offspring, and Taylor Kitsch get abducted. And I’m like, oh my goodness, how are they going to escape this? Then, of course, there’s the character I completely overlooked. And I can’t determine if…

WELDON: Yes.

KESLER: …That was deliberate or not. Throughout, I was meant to be there thinking, oh, but they – I neglected to remember Two Moons. They overlooked Two Moons. Like, the audience might forget about her because she explicitly lacks any character or essence. And I was somewhat anticipating – yes, like you mentioned, leaning into a cliché and then withdrawing from it. Like, one might have expected her to be the Indigenous guide to the territory…

WELDON: Precisely.

HADADI: Indeed.

KESLER: …Where she possesses knowledge of the landscape and is well-versed in all of the ancient practices to ensure their safe passage. Once, she does have input into a healing situation that ultimately does succeed. But it’s as if she’s never truly portrayed as particularly adept about the area. And I’m just, like, perpetually confused watching this. Like, why is she included? You know, I regret expressing that.

WELDON: Indeed.

KESLER: However, like, why did they include her? Like, she doesn’t add much. And Taylor Kitsch is not the sort of character to carry any dead weight. I just couldn’t find any redeeming aspect in her. She was merely present, sometimes contributing to the storyline, but extremely rarely.

HADADI: The show indeed presents you with those recurring ambiguities where you find yourself pondering. You’re like, is it beneficial that she’s here because at least she’s part of the group? Then, she assists in fending off the wolves that break into the cabin…

WELDON: Yes.

HADADI: …In one of the most intense moments. Is it advantageous that we didn’t portray her as this all-knowing, communicative force, or should they have done more? And I do – I’m uncertain. I suppose I partly appreciate that the show has some of those pressures and tension points that compel you, as a viewer, to make a decision. Perhaps I’m too forgiving of the show’s approach (laughter). But I appreciate there are those complicated elements that we sort of need to, like, evaluate on our own terms.

KESLER: Yes. And this serves as my soapbox for this episode, where there exists this, like, yeah, kind of chaotic feeling throughout that, like, the Indigenous people are being represented as violent savages who are, like, deceitful and treacherous and, you know, slitting throats and torturing individuals, and, you know, yes, engaging in violent raids. But that’s everyone. That’s everyone on that show.

HADADI: Indeed.

KESLER: Yes.

WELDON: Correct (laughter).

KESLER: Like, it was perplexing to ponder whether they were committing an injustice by depicting Native Americans in the same light that, you know, many westerns do, or if they were merely treating them identically as literally every other character on the show? Like, I was almost curious to, like, understand what a Mormon individual might think about, like, the depiction of Mormons in this…

WELDON: Yes, right?

KESLER: …As violent polygamists, yes, who are, like, striving to convert everyone. It was genuinely – I don’t know. While viewing this, I was threaded through, like, yes, the representation is quite accurate in terms of, like, costumes and, you know, the various tribes and how, you know, the differing cultures present themselves. But then, is that responsible or not in a show that already possesses literally no, you know, redeemable characters?

WELDON: Precisely. And one aspect that happens to many of those irredeemable characters is that they meet their demise, leading me to feel this limited series is indeed limited.

HADADI: Yes.

WELDON: I believe they cleared the roster. I don’t think there are many characters remaining. It would become a different series. Yet in 2025, it feels satisfying to have a six-episode, limited series that narrates a story with a beginning, middle, and an end. Right?

KESLER: Yes.

HADADI: I’m going to appreciate…

KESLER: Yes.

HADADI: …That structure. I mean, we could – look, Shea Whigham merely strolls off into the wilderness.

KESLER: A Shea Whigham spin-off, yes.

WELDON: Yes. I mean, I would watch a Shea Whigham spin-off.

HADADI: All of us would eagerly watch Shea Whigham’s character construct a new fort. I would tune in (laughter)

WELDON: Yep (laughter). Indeed. Like Age of Empires, just observing him, like…

HADADI: Yes.

WELDON: …You know, build a fort, build a fort, build a fort.

KESLER: Bridger’s Place. That’d be – yes. That would be it, yes.

WELDON: Yes (laughter).

KESLER: The television series. The sitcom television series. Like “Cheers,” but it’s a fort (laughter).

WELDON: I mean, there are Netflix executives listening, so let’s hope.

KESLER: Yes.

WELDON: Yes. We’re – I mean, there’s plenty to endorse here. There’s much that leaves us perplexed. But we’d like to know your thoughts about “American Primeval.” Reach us at Facebook at facebook.com/pchh. And that brings us to the conclusion of our show. Roxana Hadadi, Sam Yellowhorse Kesler, thank you sincerely for joining us.

HADADI: Thank you.

KESLER: Thank you immensely.

WELDON: And just a reminder that subscribing to POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR+ is an excellent way to support our program and public radio, and you gain access to all of our episodes without sponsorship interruptions. So please check out more at plus.npr.org/happyhour or click the link in our show notes.

This episode was produced by Liz Metzger and Lennon Sherburne and edited by Mike Katzif. Our supervising producer is Jessica Reedy, and Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for tuning into POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR. I’m Glen Weldon, and we’ll see you all tomorrow.

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