From electrical grids to powering devices, sodium-ion batteries maintain promise

On a particular episode (first launched on July 14, 2025) of The Excerpt podcast: Many of right now’s devices are powered by lithium-ion batteries, however that might be altering. Shirley Meng, a University of Chicago professor and supplies scientist, joins USA TODAY’s The Excerpt to dig into the potential of sodium-ion batteries.

Hit play on the participant under to listen to the podcast and observe together with the transcript beneath it.  This transcript was mechanically generated, after which edited for readability in its present type. There could also be some variations between the audio and the textual content.

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Dana Taylor:

Hello, I’m Dana Taylor, and it is a particular episode of USA. Today’s The Excerpt. From laptops to electrical automobiles. Lithium-ion batteries are in so lots of the merchandise we use every single day. It’s onerous to think about there’s an alternate, however a half century in the past sodium-ion batteries have been additionally on the desk as an possibility right now with metals like lithium are more durable and costlier to supply, electronics companies are taking one other have a look at sodium-ion to energy our trendy gadgets with higher availability, decrease manufacturing prices, and extra steady chemistry. Could sodium-ion batteries be the important thing to powering our future? To reply these questions extra, I’m now joined by Shirley Meng, a University of Chicago professor and materials scientists who studied sodium-ion batteries. Thanks for becoming a member of us on The Excerpt, Shirley.

Shirley Meng:

Pleasure to be right here.

Dana Taylor:

Let’s discuss sodium-ion versus lithium-ion batteries. What are the benefits and downsides of every?

Shirley Meng:

So think about that the working ions is the larger ions. So many individuals assume the larger ions might be slower, which means whenever you cost, discharge the battery, the ions transfer at a slower velocity. But that is the incorrect assumption. Actually, scientifically, we now have confirmed that sodium-ions can truly transfer very, in a short time between the unfavourable and the constructive electrodes. So one of many main benefits that sodium-ions present is that the machine are usually extra energy and really enabling extra quick charging functionality. So we are literally very excited concerning the bodily properties of the sodium-ion. And the second essential penalties of the bodily properties of the sodium-ion is that you could allow decrease temperature operation. So I’m from Chicago. Sometimes Chicago’s climate is usually a little little bit of problematic for lithium-ion batteries. Actually, sodium-ion can present an answer for the decrease temperature operation as a result of the excessive reactivity of sodium-ion, they tends to carry out very effectively at decrease temperature.

So these are only a couple examples of sodium-ion’s benefits. I can go on and on for an additional 20 minutes, however let’s discuss a bit bit about sodium-ion’s drawback. So the voltage prior to now, so in a battery, the electrochemical potential between, sorry I used the jargon, however principally the voltage between the constructive and the unfavourable electrodes within the sodium-ion batteries prior to now has tends to be decrease than that of the lithium-ion battery. So a whole lot of the transistors or a whole lot of the cell gadgets, very tough to construct up the voltage to function. However, we now have solved this drawback. Actually the varieties in sodium chemistry that enable the sodium-ion batteries to function close to 4 volt, similar to lithium-ion has been invented. So I feel though it is a nascent expertise, it is nonetheless new. So after all we fell behind by way of economic system of scale.

So the price for sodium-ion batteries, despite the fact that ultimately it’s going to attain to a cheaper price. However, in the meanwhile, sodium-ion can not compete with lithium-ion for the price. This is among the main challenges all of us are dealing with. Because of the price that can’t compete. So common public nonetheless can not entry the low-cost of sodium-ion batteries at this second. So we hope some good buyers may see the potential of the sodium-ion batteries and actually not serious about sodium-ion batteries right here to switch lithium-ion. Lithium-ion batteries are usually not replaceable. It will proceed to be with us for the many years to come back and energy lots of the essential digital gadgets round us. But sodium-ion batteries can present extra values to our society. So I feel we are going to see sodium-ion battery as an excellent complement to the lithium-ion batteries.

Dana Taylor:

With regards to environmental affect, do sodium-ion batteries have an edge over lithium-ion?

Shirley Meng:

So it is a superb query, and it actually deserves some explanations right here. I feel that the very first thing I might actually emphasize is that every one batteries, lithium-ion or sodium-ion batteries are usually not renewables. So batteries are made with chemical parts. So we begin from mining these parts from the bottom, from sodium brine or lithium brine that we now have to extract these parts. And inside a tool, we even have transition metals like iron, manganese, cobalt, nickel. Although within the sodium-ion batteries, the chemistry we invented can fully eradicate cobalt and nickel, like what we’d like in lithium-ion batteries, a whole lot of nickel, a whole lot of cobalt have been used. But in sodium-ion batteries, we now have the choices to not utilizing these parts. One thing more is sodium-ion batteries additionally don’t use copper as the present collector. Copper is definitely a vital present collector. Basically it is a element to permit the electrons to circulation, however within the sodium-ion batteries we are able to simply use a budget aluminum.

So in precept, sure, sodium-ion batteries has the potential to have decrease environmental affect as a result of we do not use what we name the crucial parts like lithium, cobalt, nickel, copper. But within the greater image, all of us have to acknowledge that any batteries we now have to mine parts, we now have to do manufacturing, we now have to do the recycling. So I feel once we discuss concerning the true environmental affect of battery machine, we’d like to consider how we are able to make sure the circularity of battery supplies. So till the scientists like us or engineers like us determine the last word method to recycle 100% all of the supplies within the batteries, I feel we nonetheless have a whole lot of work to do to make sure the environmental minimal affect of atmosphere for sodium ion batteries.

Dana Taylor:

The US is lagging behind China within the manufacture and growth of sodium ion expertise. Why is that and what wouldn’t it take for the US to catch up?

Shirley Meng:

I might share a few of my private expertise from yr 2000. That’s the yr once I began doing my PhD in lithium ion batteries. Japan simply commercialized lithium ion battery in 1992. So a couple of years later, each nation, each continent began taking a look at this lithium ion battery manufacturing manufacturing. And at the moment, I might say that primarily based my very own commentary, I feel a whole lot of firms within the western Hemisphere determined to not go after the manufacturing due to the low revenue margin and the failure to acknowledge what batteries can empower, what batteries can allow. So let me be very clear, I feel sodium ion battery manufacturing will observe comparable pathway as lithium ion batteries. So the manufacturing itself is tough, it is onerous, it’s low revenue margin. However, we should look past what the battery itself, the price. However we should always take into consideration what they will allow.

For instance, lithium ion batteries had the revolution within the cell gadgets. Apple wouldn’t achieve success with out lithium ion batteries. And Tesla wouldn’t be so profitable with out lithium ion batteries. So we could say what the sodium ion batteries may allow on our trendy grid, on our future residence. So I actually assume that we’ll face the identical problem as a result of the manufacturing as an entire western a part of the world have fell behind as a result of the requirement for the availability chain, for the manpower and likewise revenue margin. But let me say this, I feel within the try to deliver manufacturing again to US, I feel alongside the pathway, we’re going to see lithium ion batteries coming again to the US for manufacturing.

And whereas we construct up the experience, the know-how of lithium-ion batteries, the manufacturing for sodium-ion batteries will profit and we are going to catch up. I actually hope that lots of the firms who’re concerned on this enterprise competing for worth with China will not be good methods. Throughout the historical past, I feel the US and Europe have at all times produced the issues that individuals want and compete at efficiency, compete at what values we offer for the product. So I feel we are able to give attention to that. Then the following technology trendy sodium-ion batteries can and might be produced in US within the soil.

Dana Taylor:

A persistent hurdle for clear power growth right here within the US has been learn how to retailer it for later use. This applies to each wind and solar energy. Meanwhile, China has been utilizing sodium-ion batteries for power storage programs to create steady energy networks. How may that work right here within the US and what sort of funding would that take?

Shirley Meng:

So this query may be very tough to reply. One of the primary causes is that US grid and the China grid are two fully completely different programs. Actually, China’s grid is nationalized, so that they have a really uniform guidelines about how the grid is run. And the US’s grids are very fragmented and privatized. So I feel the 2 sides of the coin is on one aspect, sure, sodium-ion batteries will have the ability to play a really important function, similar to lithium-ion batteries. If you verify the California ISO system, lithium-ion batteries already been taking part in key crucial function in stabilizing the grid. So lithium-ion batteries can do the identical. However, penetration of lithium-ion batteries have over the previous 20 years met many obstacles and nonetheless dealing with a whole lot of challenges, notably available in the market, like longer period. Maybe 4 to eight hours in a single day shifts and one thing like that. So I feel that the opposite aspect of the coin is basically the coverage, the incentives that present to the battery suppliers that how we are able to speed up the implementation of the sodium-ion batteries.

And the final lacking piece for all of these utilizing batteries for the grid storage is as a result of the battery dimension goes to be gigantic. We are speaking about tons of of megawatt-hours. So think about it is like placing tens of 1000’s of Tesla automobiles collectively for storing the grid power. However, the chemistry needs to be actually secure, as a result of individuals driving smaller automobiles, you may at all times abandon the automotive and deal with the protection incident. But within the gigantic grid storage machine, we should guarantee a lot better security. And that I feel for us is among the main hurdles. And once we discuss concerning the fragmented US grid, how every of the states, every of the grid system can deal with this type of challenges stays to be an enormous query for now.

Dana Taylor:

Politically, the Trump administration has dominated again lots of the authorities funded manufacturing and client incentives for electrical autos. Are there any industrial incentives which may tip the scales towards sodium ion use anyway? Can you discuss me by means of that please?

Shirley Meng:

Yes. I feel for our total group we’re a bit bit disillusioned with the shortage of incentives within the present administration. But as a battery scientist who’ve labored on this space for 25 years since my PhD time, then I’ll let you know this isn’t the worst time we now have skilled. And proper now, simply as you talked about, the trade in comparison with 25 years in the past, we now have a trillion greenback trade backing us. And we now have additionally, many public opinions are gearing in direction of individuals have skilled the electrical automobiles, individuals have benefited from how a lot values. Batteries have develop into so ubiquitous that you do not even concentrate since you use them every single day, in every single place.

So I might say that I stay optimistic that firms, along with the federal government companies, particularly the state stage governments, we are going to trailblaze a pathway the place the incentives will not be the important thing crucial enabler, however the financial advantages, the worth added merchandise to the general public develop into the primary incentives why we’re going for electrification. And as a scientist who work on this space for therefore lengthy, I might say electrification is unstoppable. It will occur. And the present setback is short-term. And many, many good individuals are working on this space. So I’m actually fairly cautiously optimistic about the way forward for electrification.

Dana Taylor:

We respect your experience right here, Shirley, thanks a lot for being on The Excerpt.

Shirley Meng:

Pleasure.

Dana Taylor:

Thanks to our senior producers, Shannon Rae Green and Kaely Monahan for his or her manufacturing help, our govt producers Laura Beatty. Let us know what you consider this episode by sending a observe to [email protected]. Thanks for listening. I’m Dana Taylor. Taylor Wilson might be again tomorrow morning with one other episode of USA TODAY’s The Excerpt.

This article initially appeared on USA TODAY: Sodium-ion batteries: Poised to power the future | The Excerpt